airtraffic

Author Topic: Interesting Exchange between Pilot and Shannon Control  (Read 495 times)

Offline RonR

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Interesting Exchange between Pilot and Shannon Control
« on: April 15, 2019, 01:09:21 PM »
Interesting exchange between KLM671 Pilot and Shannon Control yesterday....the pilot didn't seem happy with the changes to his clearance...

Ron


Feed Provider:
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 3
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 4
ZBW (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
KLGA Gnd
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Offline wiedehopf

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Re: Interesting Exchange between Pilot and Shannon Control
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2019, 02:52:31 PM »
Did i understand the beginning right and the KLM671 arrived too early at the oceanic entry point?

What is interesting though why a dogleg / delay vector wasn't sufficient to ensure separation.

Offline RonR

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Re: Interesting Exchange between Pilot and Shannon Control
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2019, 08:56:10 PM »
Yes, according to Shannon Control it appeared that the KLM flight was arriving too early at the waypoint.  There apparantly was not enough separation between them and the aircraft in front of them (4 minutes between the two was needed).  The KLM flight seemed to be disputing this.  It sounded like he thought there was enough separation and took exception to what Shannon was telling them.  You may have noticed that when Shannon cleared them to FL390, it was a second KLM pilot that answered...
Feed Provider:
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 3
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 4
ZBW (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
KLGA Gnd
KLGA Dep
KLGA Twr
NY App (Liberty/North)
KLGA App (HAARP)
KLGA Del/ARINC/TCA

Offline RonR

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Re: Interesting Exchange between Pilot and Shannon Control
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2019, 08:59:50 PM »
BTW, the Shannon Control feed has a number of frequencies on it so it's very possible that some relevant portions of the conversation were missed.  I'm just wondering why that pilot put up such a fuss...
Feed Provider:
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 3
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 4
ZBW (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
KLGA Gnd
KLGA Dep
KLGA Twr
NY App (Liberty/North)
KLGA App (HAARP)
KLGA Del/ARINC/TCA

Offline VASAviation

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Re: Interesting Exchange between Pilot and Shannon Control
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2019, 05:42:30 AM »
Hi there,

Thanks Ron for sharing this clip. I've taken a look at FR24 and ADSB data.

A few minutes before reaching SUNOT.
-- NAX1AJ (the Norshuttle) was at FL370 and at 510 knots GS approximately.
-- KLM671, was at FL370 and at 470 knots GS approximately.

Apparently when receiving OCC clearance, NAX had been cleared to cross SUNOT at 15:22 - which they won't comply since they are showing to cross at 23 now. A minute later than cleared and planned.
Although not mentioned, I assume KLM OCC clearance was to cross SUNOT at 15:26 (4 minute separation with precedent). This is why KLM gets angry because they're doing things correctly and proceeding according to their SUNOT time. For those not familiar, SUNOT is the entry point for the Shanwick OCA.

KLM finally assumed higher level to keep going on Track C so I'm sure it was not such a big deal for them as the Captain showed on frequency. It would have been worse if their highest FL available at that point were FL370, unable to climb any higher, and therefore being forced to make a dogleg or change to Track D as they were informed.

Oceanic Operations are indeed very interesting :-D