Author Topic: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.  (Read 37950 times)

Offline ridejumpfly

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None of you think language is an issue here?

She actually was much better than many of the international students flying in the Phoenix area. Listen to some archives for "trans flight" ... Some are incredibly difficult to understand.

Offline tucraceman

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Controller sounds like a jerk. Maybe a bit of misogyny/racism going on here?
IWA controllers are dicks.  I once got scolded by a IWA controller because I did not use my full call sign after I did on my initial contact.  Told him he needs to read the AIM.
~D

Offline FlightRisk

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Controller sounds like a jerk. Maybe a bit of misogyny/racism going on here?
IWA controllers are dicks.  I once got scolded by a IWA controller because I did not use my full call sign after I did on my initial contact.  Told him he needs to read the AIM.
~D

did the controller shorten your callsign first?

Offline znurtdog

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2012, 10:49:34 PM »
I'm ex controller and current pilot. this controller is a jack ass.

Offline pilot_ngb

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2012, 01:20:37 AM »
I fly out of KIWA most weekends. I don't have an issue with them. Found them very helpful.
Taxiways at IWA are confusing. Today I flew there without a taxi diagram (due to winds elsewhere). Controllers helped me get around.

Offline tucraceman

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2012, 02:35:15 AM »
Controller sounds like a jerk. Maybe a bit of misogyny/racism going on here?
IWA controllers are dicks.  I once got scolded by a IWA controller because I did not use my full call sign after I did on my initial contact.  Told him he needs to read the AIM.
~D

did the controller shorten your callsign first?

Not a matter of shortening the callsign.  Prefix can be omitted after initial call.  I was not clear.  He wanted me to say November for every single call.  Yeah no.
~D

Offline denverpilot

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2012, 07:21:53 PM »
Controller sounds like a jerk. Maybe a bit of misogyny/racism going on here?
IWA controllers are dicks.  I once got scolded by a IWA controller because I did not use my full call sign after I did on my initial contact.  Told him he needs to read the AIM.
~D

did the controller shorten your callsign first?

Not a matter of shortening the callsign.  Prefix can be omitted after initial call.  I was not clear.  He wanted me to say November for every single call.  Yeah no.
~D

I think the point was, prefix can't be omitted until the controller does it first.

Continually adding the "November" is an annoying controller habit that seems more prevalent these days though, for sure.

Offline sykocus

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Controllers in the US can't omit the prefix of the callsign and I wasn't aware pilots were allowed to either. If someone could point to reg which says that I'd like to read it. The .65 says:

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc/atc0204.html#atc0204.html.1
2-4-9
"a. Use the identification prefix and the last 3 digits or letters of the aircraft identification after communications have been established. Do not abbreviate similar sounding aircraft identifications or the identification of an air carrier or other civil aircraft having an FAA authorized call sign."

2-4-20
"Use the full identification in reply to aircraft with similar sounding identifications. For other aircraft, the same identification may be used in reply that the pilot used in his/her initial callup except use the correct identification after communications have been established. Identify aircraft as follows:

a. U.S. registry aircraft. State one of the following:

1. Civil. State the prefix “November” when establishing initial communications with U.S. registered aircraft followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration. The controller may state the aircraft type, the model, the manufacturer's name, followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration if used by the pilot on the initial or subsequent call.

EXAMPLE-
Air traffic controller's initiated call:

“November One Two Three Four Golf.”
“November One Two Three Four.”

Responding to pilot's initial or subsequent call:

“Jet Commander One Two Three Four Papa."
“Bonanza One Two Three Four Tango.”
“Sikorsky Six Three Eight Mike Foxtrot.”"

None of the examples show the controller dropping of the prefix. If pilots start dropping the prefix you could have a situation where "delta 123" "November/Cessna 123" and/or "reach 123" all calling themselves "123".
Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.

Offline ridejumpfly

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2012, 10:47:28 PM »
I was just writing this up myself. I also read the post as saying he was only using the last three. Type+ last three or N+ last three are the shortest you can go.  

Never omit the prefix, neither as a pilot or controller.

Offline denverpilot

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2012, 01:10:36 AM »

Responding to pilot's initial or subsequent call:

€œJet Commander One Two Three Four Papa."
€œBonanza One Two Three Four Tango.€
€œSikorsky Six Three Eight Mike Foxtrot.€"

None of the examples show the controller dropping of the prefix. If pilots start dropping the prefix you could have a situation where "delta 123" "November/Cessna 123" and/or "reach 123" all calling themselves "123".

Those three examples with aircraft types, omitted the "November". ;)

All I was saying is the trend is toward using "November" more than aircraft type these days.

I prefer being called "Cessna", it allows me to filter out any other prefix when listening for a call.

And actually, I use "Skylane" since it conveys aircraft type directly with less words on initial call up. So I like that one too.

If I don't hear "Cessna" or "Skylane", I can ignore the entire rest of the transmission if I'm busy. Single pilot IFR in IMC is busy. I don't have another person sitting next to me handling radio calls, I'm busy keeping the shiny side up and the brain is "scanning" for my calls in time slices.

A controller calling everyone non-air-carrier without a distinctive company callsign, "November" requires that I listen further into all those transmissions. Harder to catch when busy.

The "prefix" to me is the leading digits, that get dropped. My aircraft tail number is N1279M.

This leaves the controller with the following options:

"November One Two Seven Niner Mike"

"Cessna One Two Seven Niner Mike"

"Skylane One Two Seven Niner Mike"

And... The shortened versions...

"Cessna Seven Niner Mike"

"Skylane Seven Niner Mike"

"November Seven Niner Mike"

It's that last one I really don't like. It's not correct because the N doesn't belong there in my full tail number, and my brain tries to skip it when doing other tasks.

I'm seeing it more often these days. Don't know the reason, other than its easier for the controller to not look at the aircraft type in the flight strip data.

If the controller is using types, I listen for "Cessna", or "Skylane".  Anything else can be listened to on a workload permitting basis.

If they're using "November" I have to add both  "November One" and "November Seven" to my brain's scanner channel to fire an interrupt to see if the tail number matches. ;)

Offline tucraceman

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2012, 07:08:48 AM »
4-2-4. Aircraft Call Signs

a. Precautions in the Use of Call Signs.


3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft type, model or manufacturer's name, followed by the digits/letters of the registration number. When the aircraft manufacturer's name or model is stated, the prefix “N” is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four Alpha.

So even I was wrong...don't have to say manufacturer and prefix.  Can just go with manufacturer or model with prefix omitted.

~D

Offline ridejumpfly

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2012, 12:38:25 PM »
I do tend to say n345 at work because it is easier then to look for the type aircraft as the type swaps to ground speed every couple seconds. If I start the transmission and its on ground speed I most likely will use n, if it is on the type I will most likely say the type. I don't use strips. As a pilot I don't  have a problem either way.  Luckily I multitask very well.

Offline Hollis

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2012, 12:13:54 PM »
No need to use the a/c tail number for ID. Airlines don't, military don't. Call yourself whatever you like. Doesn't matter to ATC.
 

Offline ridejumpfly

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2012, 01:22:30 PM »
No need to use the a/c tail number for ID. Airlines don't, military don't. Call yourself whatever you like. Doesn't matter to ATC.
 

sarcasm?

Offline Robert Larson

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2012, 09:40:50 PM »
I assumed the transponder was broadcasting my tail number for a long time, but I've learned that isn't the case. Seems like that would simplify things for controllers.

I too try to use my type when I talk to ATC (that's how I was instructed) so I'm Warrior N8330S or Skyhawk N815WW, but I've yet to ever get called back that way. I'm always turned into a Cherokee or a Cessna. :) So I just roll with it.
KRDU & KTTA http://d.liveatc.net/krdu2.m3u
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Offline StuSEL

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2012, 10:19:37 PM »
No need to use the a/c tail number for ID. Airlines don't, military don't. Call yourself whatever you like. Doesn't matter to ATC.
In the words of JFK Ground: You just can't do that. (1:12 in )

In actuality you can, but you probably shouldn't, so says the AIM (4-2-4).
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 12:47:44 AM by StuSEL »
CFII

Offline pete480

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Re: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2012, 12:03:43 PM »
No need to use the a/c tail number for ID. Airlines don't, military don't. Call yourself whatever you like. Doesn't matter to ATC.
In the words of JFK Ground:

In actuality you can, but you probably shouldn't, so says the AIM (4-2-4).

I knew this guy sounded familiar! I talk to him all the time at ISP. Probably couldn't handle JFK.