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Author Topic: Icing over Buffalo - previous clips reposted  (Read 13276 times)

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Icing over Buffalo - previous clips reposted
« on: February 14, 2009, 10:56:45 AM »
With the on-going discussion of the tragic Colgan Air crash outside of Buffalo and the sub-topics of airframe icing being brought up, I thought it interesting to repost two icing encounters captured on LiveATC audio from a few years back.   Long-timers here will remember these two clips but many of the newer members may have not heard them. 

Coincidentally, both of these icing incidents also took place in the Buffalo, NY, airspace.  Fortunately both had positive outcomes but not before some really tense moments for the pilots, controllers, and the other pilots on frequency.

-  A Learjet returning from Toronto experiences what seems to be a tailplane stall that sends the aircraft in an uncontrolled climb.   March, 2006.

- A Cessna Caravan (single-engine propeller turboprop) is laden with ice and suddenly enters an uncontrolled descent.  April, 2006.




Offline joeyb747

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Re: Icing over Buffalo - previous clips reposted
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2009, 03:48:59 PM »
The air over KBUF or say Grand Rapids MI, or any airport on the east shore of one of the great lakes for that matter, has significantly wetter air. Water vapor raises off the lakes and hangs in the air. 

Offline wrongway3

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Re: Icing over Buffalo - previous clips reposted
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2009, 08:05:33 PM »
thanks for reposting.  I'm new to this forum and had never heard them before.

Offline dan9125

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Re: Icing over Buffalo - previous clips reposted
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2009, 08:50:27 PM »
Peter,
  Thanks for puting those 2 clips back on. I remember both of those vividly when they happened as I heard them live. With all the talk about ice being the possible cause of the Colgan 3407 crash it made me think about those two incidents. Both of those pilots had a little more altitude to recover though.

dan
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 08:52:54 PM by dan9125 »

Offline joeyb747

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Re: Icing over Buffalo - previous clips reposted
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 06:52:04 PM »
The NTSB is now looking at what the chances are that somthing structuraly failed on 3407. Im thinking the only possable failure that would send a fully loaded Dash 8 into a spin would be a wing spar. maybe one of the wings seperatd from the airplane...well if that happened it would have traveled in a different direction and impacted another house...so maybe not. Maybe it failed without departing the airplane. That would still make it pretty hard to control the airplane. Does anyone know if any wreckage was found away from the aircrafts main site? I know that it was not the empanage (tail section) from the photos i've seen. it's the largest section left intact. Just a passing thought.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: Icing over Buffalo - previous clips reposted
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 07:38:22 PM »
Just had another thought: Say the airplane was laden with ice from the descent and the autopilot had the airplane trimed to compensate for it. Say as the airplane descended into the warmer air, a large section was to come off of one or both wings. That would upset the balance. Very similar to say a cargo plane can lose balance when its cargo shifts. Just a thought...

Offline LeoBern

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Re: Icing over Buffalo - previous clips reposted
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 08:21:56 PM »
First thanks again for all the good info.
A question: per the NASA video the thing to do on a tail stall is to pull back (forcefully). How easy is it to differentiate between a wingstall and a tailstall? [either event in a non-sim environment I imagine is very disconcerting]. If you're on autopilot the difference between stick shake and nose down and ossilations and nose down may not be that different. One might think it is a tail stall and pull up rapidly. Instincts would probably cause one to greatly increase power (which dont really help with a tailstall).
My question is not meant to cast any doubts or dispersions, but this forum is very informative and any insight that may assist someone here in facing a tailstall is appreciated.     

Offline bphendri

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Re: Icing over Buffalo - previous clips reposted
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2009, 01:43:15 PM »
Wow.  That caravan clip is freaky..  I am amazed that she chose to push on to Bangor after that. 

Offline rjlmmu

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Re: Icing over Buffalo - previous clips reposted
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2009, 11:12:54 PM »
nothing to add aerodynamically but the caravan pilot sounds eerily like Peggy Hill (from "King of the Hill"). Its interesting to me that the pilot yeilds command of the aircraft to ATC (altitude etc). Was she hoping for the controller to *suggest* a precautionary landing to regain composure?