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Air Traffic Monitoring => Aviation Audio Clips => Topic started by: cessna157 on January 10, 2008, 09:31:16 PM

Title: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 10, 2008, 09:31:16 PM
I'm surprised nobody caught this little incident.

Skip forward to about 13 mins into the clip for CHQ6394
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: moto400ex on January 10, 2008, 09:53:52 PM
Sounds like they landed and just the tone (urgency) of the controllers voice influenced the pilots to probably try to exit the runway faster than normal.  Thats the picture I have in my head depending on where they went off into the grass.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: gstone on January 11, 2008, 05:01:20 AM
My first post after lurking and monitoring the forums for a while!!
Great find...It was great to hear that transmission and hear how fast/efficiently the controllers switched everything to the 22 runways. Also, I noticed at the end that one of the planes later asked a controller for the tower number and controller initials.  At first I thought that maybe he was complimenting about how efficiently they were handling the runway switch, but now I wonder if it was to discuss the plane going off the taxiway.  I could not catch the call sign who asked, but I am pretty sure it was not the CHQ6394 who went off into the grass because he had been told to monitor ground.  The request is at the 29:00 minute of the recording.

The only other time I have heard a request for the tower controller's initials was in San Francisco last week with the windshear and microbursts and an aircraft wanted to compliment him on the excellent reports he provided.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 11, 2008, 06:18:11 AM
It was CHQ6394, at least that's who reports they were in the grass.  The reason for the frequency request was because they reported in the grass, then tower didn't talk to them again.  CHQ needed a frequency to talk on for requests, etc. 
I'm just guessing (hey, this is the internet, right?), but the request for tower number and initials was probably from someone who heard the incident (tower unprofessionally hurrying someone to get off the runway) and wanted to report it.  We don't need to be told to hurry off the runway.  We know that we can't stay on the runway, and we know that there's someone behind us on final.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: athaker on January 11, 2008, 02:32:49 PM
Were you workin this day cessna?

Independent question:

Upon landing, are you always given a taxiway on which to turn off, is it predetermined, or is it pretty much whenever you slow down enough to exit?
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 11, 2008, 05:05:57 PM
Nope, not working.  I'm in training all this month.  Movin up to the heavy metal.  Unfortunately that means I'll be hitting JFK a lot more than I have been (I haven't seen JFK since mid November, and am very happy)

To answer your second question, it's a combination of the 2.  In our approach briefing that we conduct every flight, we go over anticipated runway turnoffs and directions.  Basically, this part of the brief would be "We'll expect a right turnoff, probably either M or MB".  Of course, when we land, we will turn off on the first one that we can safely make.  We usually head for the paved areas..........
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: KASWspotter on January 11, 2008, 05:21:19 PM
Hey Cessna congrats on moving up. What equipment will you be in?
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 11, 2008, 05:30:39 PM
CRJ700 and CRJ900.  Been in ground school all week.  In the 700 simulator next week.  They are some nice peices of metal.  The 900s that we're getting are brand new airplanes, so that'll be nice with the first class and the new-regional jet smell.  Except I'd hardly call the CRJ900 a regional jet.  It's bigger than a DC9, and has the same landing gear as a B-757.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: KASWspotter on January 11, 2008, 05:33:57 PM
Good deal. Gonna be like driving a new car for a little while. All the new smells and a few new gadgets. Good luck and keep us filled in.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: PHL Approach on January 12, 2008, 11:51:31 PM
The 900s that we're getting are brand new airplanes, so that'll be nice with the first class and the new-regional jet smell.

Ohh la la, 900s  :-P Since we get them in Philly, let me know if you ever come in. Would love to chat for a bit.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: Switch Monkey on January 13, 2008, 12:21:57 AM
CRJ700 and CRJ900.  Been in ground school all week.  In the 700 simulator next week.  They are some nice peices of metal.  The 900s that we're getting are brand new airplanes, so that'll be nice with the first class and the new-regional jet smell.  Except I'd hardly call the CRJ900 a regional jet.  It's bigger than a DC9, and has the same landing gear as a B-757.
You're not serious are you? Name one major that flys the 900. BTW the RJ part of CRJ is "Regional Jet"
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 13, 2008, 08:25:02 AM
Oh let's not start this discussion.  Yes it says CRJ.  Bombardier never tossed the CRJ unlike Embraer did with the 170+ series.  The CRJ900 is widely considered the competitor with the E(RJ)-175.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on January 13, 2008, 12:59:44 PM
CRJ700 and CRJ900.  Been in ground school all week.  In the 700 simulator next week.  They are some nice peices of metal.  The 900s that we're getting are brand new airplanes, so that'll be nice with the first class and the new-regional jet smell. Except I'd hardly call the CRJ900 a regional jet.  It's bigger than a DC9, and has the same landing gear as a B-757.
You're not serious are you? Name one major that flys the 900. BTW the RJ part of CRJ is "Regional Jet"

cessna157 is a pilot who flies regional jets for fun and profit into places like KJFK.  My interpretation of his comment was that he was merely pointing out that the 900 is so big that is defies the concept of a regional jet, despite its use or designation.   
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 13, 2008, 01:10:31 PM
Haha, yeah, that pretty much summarizes what I was trying to say.

Except for the fun/profit part.  I absolutely love my job.  It's my hobby, it's my passion......except for the JFK part.  Flying into JFK isn't exactly a hobby of mine.  I don't mind the ground traffic on the taxiways, lines for takeoff, etc....  It's all of the other stuff that those who don't fly DCI airplanes don't see.  It's the stress of trying to get boarded up in time.  Its the stress of Delta's much overcrowded and outdated terminals.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on January 13, 2008, 01:25:57 PM
Except for the fun/profit part.  I absolutely love my job. 

In my best Foghorn Leghorn voice, "That was a joke , son. I'm pitching 'em but you ain't catching 'em."
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: KASWspotter on January 13, 2008, 10:46:46 PM
Quote
You're not serious are you? Name one major that flys the 900. BTW the RJ part of CRJ is "Regional Jet"
     

   Way to step right into a conversation you know nothing about. I'd suggest you refrain from that type of stuff here. We know he flies the CRJ-200. If you read the previous statement that the CRJ9 is bigger than a DC9 and uses the same landing gear as 757, you'd understand that is moving to heavy metal for him. Keep an open mind and don't act like a know-it-all. These forums are friendly and I'm grateful to be able to interact with the folks that are employed in the aviation industry, both controllers and pilots alike. Im neither but have been an aviation freak for a long time. I enjoy coming here to learn everything I can. One of the reasons I never joined ANET was because of the sarcasm that goes on in the forums there. All I ask is to please keep it nice for everyone involved.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: mk on January 14, 2008, 05:20:02 PM
well since we're on the topic of "heavier" metal....Colgan Airways based in Manassas, VA. (Flights out of IAD)  are getting rid of thier Saab 340s and going to the Dash 8 402Q.
The DH8D, cruises at about 280kias at 13,000ft.  i had one almost run over a couple of kingair's going up to TEB yesterday. 

They don't have B757 gear (nor does the rj), but the DH8D is a sweet ride!

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1307374/L/ (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1307374/L/)
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 14, 2008, 05:29:43 PM
<drool>

I'd love to fly the Q400.  I've heard nothing but good things about them.  They don't have that pesky little annoyance of the landing gear coming up on landing like the 200 does I hope?
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: mk on January 14, 2008, 08:21:23 PM
yeah...they fold up into the engine cowlings. 

who do you fly for?
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 14, 2008, 09:24:41 PM
I'm a CRJ 700/900 driver for OH
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: KASWspotter on January 15, 2008, 12:20:43 AM
I heard that as well not too long ago about the Dash 8's. Have they started integration yet or when do they plan to start? Cessna I have another question for ya. What road did you take to get to where you are? Im just curious. I was out at our airport today and signed up to start lessons in April. Ive finally read enough books, flight simmed, and flat out driven my wife crazy talking about aviation. She threw the checkbook at me and said just go do it or you'll regret it. I think the final straw was when she saw me typing on this forum last night at 1230 am. Im still never gonna let her have the window seat until Im doing the flying though. :evil:
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: athaker on January 15, 2008, 12:29:04 AM
Movin up to the heavy metal.

Here's a picture of the CRJ 900 in Lufthansa colors, cessna's heavy metal...realllllll big  :-D

(I just had to :wink:...we love you man!  Thanks for answering my earlier questions)

Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 15, 2008, 07:47:31 AM

Here's a picture of the CRJ 900 in Lufthansa colors, cessna's heavy metal...realllllll big  :-D

Haha, well when you put the 2 together, it kinda takes my thunder away.  Actually, that's a CRJ100/200 (my old bird).  My new metal is much larger than that tiny thing.  First day in the sim today.......eeeek

Here's an awesome picture of my "heavy metal":
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: moto400ex on January 15, 2008, 09:16:27 PM
Why do people keep saying the CRJ 900 has the same gear as a 757.  Looks nothing like a 757 gear but what exactly if anything is the same?
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 15, 2008, 11:10:27 PM
The tires are the same, and rumor has it pieces of the strut are identical.  I realize that the landing gear trucks are vastly different (2 tires per main vs 4).  I'm not sure, I just flew the sim for the first time today.  It's landing gear looks like a huge spider.  I'm just telling you what they told us in systems.  I should be in the airplane late next week.  I'll let y'alls know
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: mk on January 18, 2008, 11:12:48 AM
they've replaced at least one saab with the dash 8.  not sure when the whole fleet is gonna get replaced
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: xprtmarksman on January 25, 2008, 10:07:42 PM
I think the improper use of phraseology on the controller's part had a lot to do with the aircraft going into the grass.  "Do this quickly" is never mentioned in FAO 7110.65, nor I am assuming any JFK LOA.  He thought that a go around was not possible on the aircraft behind him because of the controller's tone.  The New Yorker's attitude is not a substitute to posted air traffic phraseology.  Sending the trailing aircraft around would have caused a lot less work overall. 
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: Acey on January 27, 2008, 01:32:16 AM
Back to the original post... I almost feel sorry when he says "and tower [...] we're off in the grass," because you know the pilot realizes how much trouble it's going to cause. Darn JFK and their ridiculoulsy expedited operations.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 30, 2008, 08:55:46 PM
Yeah, tower shouldn't have gotten on them like that.  But there's nothing we can do about it.  That goes into the file called "Well, its JFK, they're just doing the best they can."  My company did that for a while.  But lately they've been cleaning up the JFK operation.

On a side note, I'll be flying into JFK tomorrow (Thursday) around 15:45ish as COM202 from AUS in a CR9.  Then we depart Friday afternoon as COM17, headed down to ATL in a CR7 at 13:30.  I'll be thinking about all you guys when I'm taxiing around JFK getting yelled at for not using the grass.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: asrlb45 on January 30, 2008, 10:53:28 PM
Doesn't Comair hire really low time "flying academy" pilots? Could this have been a factor?
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: cessna157 on January 31, 2008, 05:17:25 AM
Doesn't Comair hire really low time "flying academy" pilots? Could this have been a factor?

Well, No.  Comair's mins are higher than quite a few other airlines.  Could this have been a factor in what?
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: asrlb45 on February 08, 2008, 03:23:05 AM
Well Comair's mins are 600TT and through Delta Connection Academy they hire with lower TT.  I am a ATP own a small flight school and I was trying to teach a new jet F/O to fly a tailwheel that came from a "flying academy" and from what I can tell that these schools focus a lot on the excellent 121 style CRM training , procedures and extensive knowledge but this student was lacking on basic airmanship and aircraft control when the "unexpected" would happen in a fabric tailwheel.  I have seen pilots handle a 180 with 60 hours TT much much better than this student in a Taylorcraft.  A fabric taildragger is a completely different type of airplane to fly I know, but I was just wondering after this recent experience if maybe a low-time F/O was the flying leg pilot and possibly was flustered when a non-routine request was issued, and if this may have been a factor in running into the grass.  I would think a more experienced pilot would throw out a Part 91.3a qoute to that controller if needed and maintain control of the airplane.    You sir I respect as a fellow professional pilot, I have read and enjoy your posts on this site,  and I am not trying to imply anything negative about the company that pays for your lunch.  Fly Safe!
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: MathFox on February 08, 2008, 06:03:31 AM
asrlb45, your theory about this mishap is just speculation... (or you should point to a source that shows that the pilot handling this plane had limited experience.) Did you consider other potential factors like fatigue and distraction?
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: Jason on February 08, 2008, 06:55:47 AM
asrlb45, your theory about this mishap is just speculation... (or you should point to a source that shows that the pilot handling this plane had limited experience.) Did you consider other potential factors like fatigue and distraction?

I think we can all agree that there were many factors involved in the incident that are simply unknown to us without some definitive information from a trusted source.
Title: Re: ERJ off into the grass at JFK
Post by: asrlb45 on February 11, 2008, 01:44:13 PM
I agree as well.  I was just wondering if the possibility of a low time pilot could have been a single factor in a very minor incident obviously a result of some sort of pilot error.