Author Topic: Continental (Colgan)-3407 -8 Crash in Buffalo  (Read 286057 times)

Offline ls6camaroa4

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2009, 02:49:24 AM »
Good job OP, your recording is being covered on CNN.

Offline PIT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 527
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2009, 02:50:28 AM »
MSNBC just used the liveatc clip and there was no recognition WTF??? :x

Offline frantzy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2009, 02:54:38 AM »
Ice. The Dash 8 is bad in Ice.
Please elaborate.   I know of the ATR in Roselawn, but it seems like Dash 8s operate incident free in some pretty icy places.  (I'm not trying to pick a fight, just trying to understand).

Offline jrsx

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2009, 02:57:23 AM »
MSNBC just used the liveatc clip and there was no recognition WTF??? :x

The inaccuracies in news reporting amaze me, they reported that the recording was Cleveland Center.

Offline spikerjack

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2009, 02:59:17 AM »
Isn't this the first major crash since the AA jet bound from JFK to Puerto Rico in 2001?

I think the last was Comair #191 in Lexington back in August 2006.  49 lost, co-pilot survived.

Offline frantzy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2009, 02:59:47 AM »
the jist i'm getting is that there was an inconsistency in their ILS for runway 23, something like that, if the frequency dropped randomly may cause the computer to 'disconnect' in a way, much like removing a cord from your modem, and may just fall as the aircraft is relying on instruments. Who's to even say that that 'blip' may have overloaded the computer, kind of like a short.
but in the end, icing may be the culprit, even though the most reported was 1/4 inch.
.. what i dont get is according to the news it flew in an opposite direction before it crashed.. none of that hypothetical transmissions are on the audio.


flying NORTHBOUND on a South-SW glide path, engines "didn't sound normal", impact with ground at 10:17.. flat landing in a low left turn, aircraft's nose pitch steep angle down.


As far as icing goes Turboprops have sufficient anti-icing capabilities to combat icing conditions. But whose to say they were working properly. Weather is always one of the first things people think of because in a situation like this it's the only thing we know for sure as of yet. And it isn't immediately ruled out since it wasn't a beautiful night with no weather in the area.

I also agree, after reviewing the tape, that a few of the transmissions do sound a little shaky...maybe nerves from a situation onboard... or just turbulent conditions while transmitting.

There are a lot of things that happen in that last 5 or so miles. The aircraft configuration changes, possibly an assymetric flap extension causing the aircraft to roll uncontrollably. Or a sudden power change caused the engine stress that caused a failure. LOTS of possibilities. The point is, unfortunately we'll have to wait for the investigators to do their jobs and everyone in the industry learns from it, if it was a preventable accident.

None of this is meant to disprove anyone or offend. Just trying to clarify from my experience, and add another few possibilities.



All excellent points, especially about the 5 mile final config changes.    Though the Roselawn ATR icing crash showed even a turboprop can be overwhelmed in SLD conditions (although that airplane was holding, and this one was not).   I guess we'll have to wait for more info...

Offline PIT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 527
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2009, 03:04:34 AM »
MSNBC just used the liveatc clip and there was no recognition WTF??? :x

The inaccuracies in news reporting amaze me, they reported that the recording was Cleveland Center.

The media has gotta be on  these forums. Give the credit! Get the facts right!

Offline TBolt

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2009, 03:19:31 AM »
CNN just started playing an edited recording of ATC.  A previous interviewee said that he got the audio from LiveATC, but I don't see any mention of the site on the screen.  Boo CNN.

My condolences to the family of the crew and passengers.  :(

Offline onesierrawhiskey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2009, 03:23:31 AM »
Isn't this the first major crash since the AA jet bound from JFK to Puerto Rico in 2001?

You forget the Comair crash in Kentucky in 2006.
EDIT- which was mentioned since.

Great job on getting the recording so quick.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 03:25:30 AM by ST »

Offline PIT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 527
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2009, 03:23:56 AM »
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJC3407

Here is the flightaware track

Offline ceilidhmc

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2009, 03:36:57 AM »
Further information on the Colgan 3407 aircraft....Bombardier Q-400 not the older version Dash-8.  Here is a link  http://www.q400.com/q400/en/home.jsp

Offline Aardvark

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2009, 03:44:19 AM »
I have a hard time agreeing with the second Dash-8 shooting the approach.
Similar aircraft goes down and he does not appear to give it a second though. Better safe than sorry... Get out of that ice.

Offline claver

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2009, 03:49:58 AM »
Just saw the weather at http://www.nws.noaa.gov/radar_tab.php
If you can find the historical take a look at the base and storm relative velocity loops. Looks like a perfect windshear setup and the crash site was right at the edge of a transition from ~50kt NW winds to opposite winds. Add to that the icing.

Also when I first saw this about a half our after the crash to now about 2 hours after the crash, the winds. Why rnwy 23 and not 32? The winds in the entire area were N, NW and NE favoring 32. I noticed that the winds at KBUF ATIS were reporting W and SW sometimes then swinging back to N for the past 2 hours.  Especially for the flight coming up from the S with 50kt headwinds 32 was a better choice even with W-SW winds. The planes turn to rnwy 23 with a possible  wind shift to N-NE and above spotted windshear plus the ice was a bad setup.

I did a similar analysis of the Cory Lidle NYC crash with the weather within hours of that event and called it correctly that the wind drifted him into the city.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 04:26:24 AM by claver »

Offline ceilidhmc

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2009, 03:53:03 AM »
Just another helpful note when listening to the ATC of the Colgan 3407 flight.  As with all Commercial air travel, there is a flight crew of 2, a Captain and a First Officer.  During each leg of the shift one of the 2 pilots flies and the other handles all radio communication.  So in this instance the Female pilot in the Colgan ATC transmissions would not be flying the aircraft.

Most shifts on short-haul domestic flights involve one aircraft and crew flying to several locations during the shift.  For example I rode in the jump seat of a Nordair flight a while back and their shift that night was Quebec City - Montreal - Ottawa - Montreal - Quebec City - Montreal.  So on each leg of that shift 1 pilot was at the controls and the other handled all radio comm.  On each leg they swapped jobs.

Offline pmflood1

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2009, 04:01:18 AM »
damn weird stuff
MY hearts go out to the familys


-----
Sig http://anime-media.com

Offline Glavata

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 30
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2009, 05:07:20 AM »

Offline windspeaks

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2009, 05:43:08 AM »
16:03 he hands 3407 off
And by experience the only thing mentioned here that rings a bell is the wind shear and direction changes present at the time. When the aircraft is in flaps transition, power settings require change, if the wind shear shifts during this phase it can cause the aircraft to fall or become unstable on the longitudinal axis. the dash has exceptional roll stability, but less than desired pitch stability.
This should have been a go around.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 05:58:16 AM by windspeaks »

Offline evilcuban

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 66
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2009, 06:09:15 AM »
Aircraft   De Havilland Canada Dash 8-400 (twin-turboprop)


Are turbo props more likely to ice over, than a jet?

I think icing happens, but it's the prevention/elimination of build-up that the a/c combat.  A lot of turboprops use deicing boots whereas most jets use heated bleed air.  MANY aircraft use deicing boots so I don't know that really makes a difference.

Offline ckleitsch

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2009, 06:17:17 AM »
Attached is a link to a map identifying waypoint TRAVA, after which they are cleared to 6000.

Offline ckleitsch

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2009, 06:23:12 AM »
  Link to map with TRAVA:

   http://www.fallingrain.com/waypoint/US/TRAVA.html
 
   



kimchicq

  • Guest
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2009, 06:24:17 AM »
I learned of liveatc.net overnight as I followed coverage on WIVB-Buffalo tv channel 4, but they spoke the address so quickly and only once! I can't believe they're not crediting the source on any of the local stations. Thankfully I was able to find you again from this msnbc E-news story, but it's ridiculous that the tv version isn't giving credit.  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29173163/?gt1=43001

Hopefully it will attract knowledgable people with something for the rest of us to read and learn from. I plan for this to be my last posting, except for asking questions. I wish I had found you under happier circumstances. I used to live in Clarence, not far from the crash site. The town supervisor gave the population as 20,000, but the village of Clarence Center only has a few hundred souls, all located within a mile of the site (maybe 2 miles). It's a close-knit community, but I was never treated like an outsider.

Offline darry2385

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2009, 06:44:56 AM »
FWIW, the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Airlines_Flight_3407) cites the LiveATC feed archive for BUF

Offline paldriver

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: to #21 Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2009, 07:16:05 AM »
Someone said the Dash 8 is bad in Ice, as a dash 8 pilot and other turbo - props, the Dash 8 is probably one of the best airplanes in Icing. It was built for it!- One speculation from this perspective is that as good as it is in icing, must use the anti and de-ice equipment properly. Possibly engine ice b/c  Engine Inlet anti-icing was not being used correctly. Ice can get on the turbine fins and cause hectic problems.

Offline kitsap2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2009, 07:23:49 AM »
I just listened to the controller recordings.  My heart goes out to the victims families and the controllers involved.  It's a pit of the stomach, sickening feeling listening to the lead up to lost communications.  I, too, felt the pilot's voice was a bit shaky/unnerved with the last couple of transmissions.

What I am curious about is the fifteen minutes leading up to the loss of comm.  There was no mention of icing by the pilots of several aircraft which made the approach to rwy23.  And yet, after loss of comm, some pilots did state icing conditioins between 6000 and 3500 (not exact, my recollection)on the decent.

What a terrible, terrible tragedy.  I strongly suspect icing.  Where I used to work (retired, now), icing info, when encountered, was spread around to everyone.  But then again, I worked in a region where icing was the norm, 9 months out of the year.

I am shaken.

Tom

Offline sycamoregrill

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Continental (Colgan) -8 Crash in Buffalo
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2009, 07:41:29 AM »
CNN is playing the audio feed again.  No credit to LiveATC again!  In fact, no credit to anyone!

God Bless those who lost their lives and their families.