Author Topic: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit  (Read 18906 times)

Offline lajim

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CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« on: May 16, 2012, 01:53:12 AM »
This was recorded on 271.0 between BIGFOOT and Band 55/56 who were flying combat air patrol (CAP) during POTUS visit to LA last week.  A target is headed towards the TFR center and communications get a little tense during the intercept.  After the target turned away, BIGFOOT advised that the target had had been within "8 minutes from our protective asset".  This was just before POTUS departed LAX, which is captured in updates by BIGFOOT towards the end of the recording.



Offline mielsonwheals

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Re: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 03:14:49 PM »
Great clip thanks for posting. Very interesting to hear the interaction between Band 55/56 and Bigfoot, especially Band 55's reluctance to "push it up, max up sonic" for the intercept. Bigfoot saw the TOI getting pretty close to LAX, while Band 55 didn't want to be too fast to see the target and run him over.

Offline Rick108

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Re: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 04:51:46 PM »
Great clip thanks for posting. Very interesting to hear the interaction between Band 55/56 and Bigfoot, especially Band 55's reluctance to "push it up, max up sonic" for the intercept. Bigfoot saw the TOI getting pretty close to LAX, while Band 55 didn't want to be too fast to see the target and run him over.
Yes, thanks for posting this - very interesting stuff!

It sounds like the base of a low cloud layer was at 2500', and the TOI was at 2000', so I imagine that made it more difficult for Band 55 to get a visual on the target from above. 

Interesting that all this was going on even though the "target" had not done anything wrong yet.  Heading toward a restricted area is not illegal - not until you cross the line.  I'll certainly remember this thread next time I'm flying anywhere near a VIP TFR area!  :-o

Offline lajim

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Re: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 09:26:58 PM »
I believe he said "Push it up max subsonic."

Offline elscion111

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Re: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2012, 02:38:17 AM »
Thanks for the post :)

Offline iskyfly

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Re: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2012, 02:58:02 PM »
  Heading toward a restricted area is not illegal - not until you cross the line. 

Judging from the TFR covered by FDC 2/9423 it seems to me that the pilot did violate the restricted airspace.
Note to add- NORAD does state that the aircraft violated the TFR. Also, news media reports that the pilot was arrested.

Also, the comms seem to back up that the aircraft did violate TFR;

Parts were unintelligle but here is what I could figure out. I also note that there wasn't a call to go supersonic.

Bigfoot: 8 minutes from tfr center from our protective assett. Push it up.

Bigfoot: Instead of a max sub perhaps .5 or .6 M ?

Band 55: When im intercepting a guy doing 140 knots I can push it up max subsonic and do (6?)50 but ill be by him in a few seconds and never see the dude and really there is no point to it.

Bigfoot: Ok bigfoot copies

Band 55: How close was he?

Bigfoot: 10 miles from TFR center.

FDC 2/9423
Quote
Area A  
Airspace Definition:  
  Center:  On the SANTA MONICA VOR/DME (SMO) 026 degree radial at 3.8 nautical miles. (Latitude: 34º03'31"N, Longitude: 118º24'25"W)  
  Radius:  32 nautical miles  
  Altitude:  From the surface up to but not including 18000 feet MSL  
Effective Date(s):  
  From May 11, 2012 at 0045 UTC (May 10, 2012 at 1745 PDT)  
  To May 11, 2012 at 1800 UTC (May 11, 2012 at 1100 PDT)  
 
Area B  
Airspace Definition:  
  Center:  On the LOS ANGELES VORTAC (LAX) 050 degree radial at 1.3 nautical miles. (Latitude: 33º56'33"N, Longitude: 118º24'29"W)  
  Radius:  8 nautical miles  
  Altitude:  From the surface up to but not including 18000 feet MSL  
Effective Date(s):  
  From May 11, 2012 at 0045 UTC (May 10, 2012 at 1745 PDT)  
  To May 11, 2012 at 0200 UTC (May 10, 2012 at 1900 PDT)  
 
Area C  
Airspace Definition:  
  Center:  On the VAN NUYS VOR/DME (VNY) 113 degree radial at 7.3 nautical miles. (Latitude: 34º08'57"N, Longitude: 118º22'34"W)  
  Radius:  10 nautical miles  
  Altitude:  From the surface up to but not including 18000 feet MSL  
Effective Date(s):  
  From May 11, 2012 at 0115 UTC (May 10, 2012 at 1815 PDT)  
  To May 11, 2012 at 0600 UTC (May 10, 2012 at 2300 PDT)  
 
Area D  
Airspace Definition:  
  Center:  On the SANTA MONICA VOR/DME (SMO) 026 degree radial at 3.8 nautical miles. (Latitude: 34º03'31"N, Longitude: 118º24'25"W)  
  Radius:  10 nautical miles  
  Altitude:  From the surface up to but not including 18000 feet MSL  
  Excluding
Center:  On the VAN NUYS VOR/DME (VNY) 159 degree radial at 0.8 nautical miles. (Latitude: 34º12'35"N, Longitude: 118º29'24"W)  
  Radius:  2 nautical miles  
  Altitude:  From the surface up to and including 3000 feet MSL  
Effective Date(s):  
  From May 11, 2012 at 0530 UTC (May 10, 2012 at 2230 PDT)  
  To May 11, 2012 at 1745 UTC (May 11, 2012 at 1045 PDT)  
 
Area E  
Airspace Definition:  
  Center:  On the LOS ANGELES VORTAC (LAX) 050 degree radial at 1.3 nautical miles. (Latitude: 33º56'33"N, Longitude: 118º24'29"W)  
  Radius:  8 nautical miles  
  Altitude:  From the surface up to but not including 18000 feet MSL  
Effective Date(s):  
  From May 11, 2012 at 1645 UTC (May 11, 2012 at 0945 PDT)  
  To May 11, 2012 at 1800 UTC (May 11, 2012 at 1100 PDT)  
 

Operating Restrictions and Requirements
 
No pilots may operate an aircraft in the areas covered by this NOTAM (except as described).  
 
Except as specified below and/or unless authorized by ATC in consultation with the air traffic security coordinator via the domestic events network (DEN):

A. ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS WITHIN THE 8 NMR AND/OR 10 NMR AREA(S) LISTED ABOVE, KNOWN AS THE INNER CORE(S), ARE PROHIBITED EXCEPT FOR: MILITARY AIRCRAFT DIRECTLY SUPPORTING THE UNITED STATES SECRET SERVICE (USSS) AND THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. COORDINATED AND APPROVED LAW ENFORCEMENT, AIR AMBULANCE AND FIREFIGHTING OPERATIONS MUST RECEIVE APPROVAL PRIOR TO ENTERING THIS AIRSPACE AT 858-537-5900 TO AVOID POTENTIAL DELAYS. REGULARLY SCHEDULED COMMERCIAL PASSENGER AND ALL-CARGO CARRIERS OPERATING UNDER ONE OF THE FOLLOWING TSA-APPROVED STANDARD SECURITY PROGRAMS/PROCEDURES: AIRCRAFT OPERATOR STANDARD SECURITY PROGRAM (AOSSP), FULL ALL-CARGO AIRCRAFT OPERATOR STANDARD SECURITY PROGRAM (FACAOSSP), MODEL SECURITY PROGRAM (MSP), TWELVE FIVE STANDARD SECURITY PROGRAM (TFSSP) ALL CARGO, OR ALL-CARGO INTERNATIONAL SECURITY PROCEDURE (ACISP) AND ARE ARRIVING INTO AND/OR DEPARTING FROM 14 CFR PART 139 AIRPORTS.

B. For operations within the airspace between the 8 NMR AND/OR 10 NMR and 32 nmr area(s) listed above, known as the outer ring(s): All aircraft operating within the outer ring(s) listed above are limited to aircraft arriving or departing local airfields, and workload permitting, ATC may authorize transit operations. Aircraft may not loiter. All aircraft must be on an active IFR or VFR flight plan with a discrete code assigned by an air traffic control (ATC) facility. Aircraft must be squawking the discrete code prior to departure and at all times while in the TFR and must remain in two-way radio communications with ATC.

C. The following operations are not authorized within this TFR: flight training, practice instrument approaches, aerobatic flight, glider operations, seaplane operations, parachute operations, ultralight, hang gliding, balloon operations, agriculture/crop dusting, animal population control flight operations, banner towing operations, sightseeing operations, maintenance test flights, radio controlled model aircraft operations, model rocketry, unmanned aircraft systems (UAS), and utility and pipeline survey operations.

D. FAA recommends that all aircraft operators check notams frequently for possible changes to this TFR prior to operations within this region.

 

It has been my experience that when flying within or near the DC ADIZ where a SFRA is required (or IFR flight plan) it is recommended to monitor 121.5 on 2nd radio. When P-40 (Camp David) is expanded it is not unusual to hear calls going out to traffic who are heading in that direction to alter course, even though they aren't in the airspace. When departing from airports near P-40 you are required to be on a heading away from the center of P-40. So I don't find it unusual that an aircraft that might be outside of a TFR but heading in its direction gets attention.



Offline Rick108

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Re: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2012, 03:39:53 PM »
Well, that explains it.  If the TFR had a 32mn radius, then he was clearly violating it at 10 miles from the center, and all the attention makes more sense now.  Thanks for the clarification.

Offline martyj19

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Re: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2012, 09:36:41 PM »
This news report

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/05/11/f-16s-intercept-small-plane-in-presidents-airspace-over-los-angeles/

says the pilot was questioned and released and no one was arrested, and the audio clip says it was a student pilot.  Whether arrested or not, being met by law enforcement after you land is a good way to wreck your day.  And there can always be a certificate action filed later.

Kind of immediately brings home the comment I made the other day about being shot at, and always checking TFRs.  That is very good advice on monitoring 121.5.

Offline silagi

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Re: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2012, 12:19:30 AM »
I was listening to intercept last year in the San Francisco Bay Area during an Obama visit.  After the fighter pilot buzzed him a couple of times he got a clue and tuned his radio to 121.500.  After the fighter pilot told him that he was violating a TFR he wanted to make sure he got his point across and repeated "I just want to make sure that you understand that I am fully armed US military fighter jet and I am protecting restricted airspace that you are currently violating and you need to land immediately!"  Every except, "one false move and I can blow you out of the sky"

Offline iskyfly

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Re: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2012, 03:45:44 AM »

says the pilot was questioned and released and no one was arrested,

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57432948/f-16-jets-intercept-small-plane-that-violated-president-obamas-airspace-in-los-angeles/
Quote
El Monte police Lt. Dan Burlingham said the Piper landed at the city's small airport about 15 miles east of downtown Los Angeles, and the pilot was detained until Secret Service agents took the pilot into custody.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/05/12/Pilot-violates-Obama-airspace-in-LA/UPI-43271336828211/#ixzz1vClAM2XD
Quote
Sources told the Los Angeles Times the pilot had been arrested, Secret Service agents had interviewed him and the incident appears to have been unintentional.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/05/secret-service-interviews-pilot-who-violated-obamas-airspace.html
Quote
Law enforcement sources told The Times that Secret Service agents interviewed the pilot at El Monte Airport and that he has been arrested.

Perhaps "taken into custody" is being confused for "arrested".

Offline martyj19

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Re: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2012, 12:22:26 PM »
Quote
Perhaps "taken into custody" is being confused for "arrested".

The sources you were able to find on it certainly indicate that "arrested" is correct.  Either way, being detained and questioned by the Secret Service is not something that we should be eager to have on our resumes.

I suppose there is a technical distinction of some sort between "detained" ("Am I free to go?" "No") and "arrested" (which may involve being booked into a jail), but it may not be of any practical consequence if you are a pilot who is in the middle of it.

The bottom line is, know what is going on with TFRs every time you fly.

Offline iskyfly

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Re: CAP Intercept During POTUS LA Visit
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2012, 02:38:38 PM »
Correct. And there are plenty of resources to determine where and when the TFR's are active. This should not have happened. Another blemish for GA.