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Air Traffic Monitoring => Aviation Audio Clips => Topic started by: tarapoto on June 20, 2011, 07:01:19 PM

Title: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: tarapoto on June 20, 2011, 07:01:19 PM
I'm not sure what just happened I was just listening on JFK Tower and around 1050-1055z the controller shouted at Air China to cancel takeoff clearance, then proceeded to say all traffic is stopped. I'm not sure what happened, Air China rejected takeoff and returned to the ramp with hot brakes and someone started talking about the incident and the controller said "No need to talk about it on the air, we can all see what's going on here" and then he chuckled. I don't know how to pull up the audio, but if anyone is interested the rejected takeoff was at 1054z I believe. Happy listening

PS. I think it was Air China, the pilot had an Asian accent
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Lrusso on June 20, 2011, 07:10:44 PM
It was Lufthansa 411 - an Airbus A340
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: tarapoto on June 20, 2011, 07:17:35 PM
Ah ok, thanks. Is this like a daily occurence at JFK? :-D

How long does it take for the audio archive to come up? Half an hour?
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Lrusso on June 20, 2011, 07:22:56 PM
def not a normal occurrence seemed like a very serious incident.

Not sure on the archives. 
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: cstefano on June 20, 2011, 07:26:23 PM
Feeds are archived in half-hour intervals; the most recent interval usually shows up in the archive a few minutes after the hour/half hour.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: squircle on June 20, 2011, 07:52:50 PM
I just listened from 2230-2300Z and found bits of the conversation; I edited them together the best I could. Nobody really makes it clear as to what happened (although I am pretty curious!).
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Lrusso on June 20, 2011, 07:55:56 PM
Seemed like DLH took off without clearance?

or someone entered the runway I don't quite understand the Short career line that JFK controller has been there for quite awhile so I don't think the controller made a mistake.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: squircle on June 20, 2011, 08:09:20 PM
I don't quite understand the Short career line

There wasn't any audible takeoff clearance in the archive, but I should clarify a bit more with that comment. That comment was made by a VRD pilot who had just landed and (presumably) had seen whatever went on with the DLH aircraft.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Dngnkeeper on June 20, 2011, 08:10:04 PM
At 0:49 someone says "those two were coming together". Possible runway incursion or some type of imminent collision?

Good catch by the controller and pushing the all stop.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Lrusso on June 20, 2011, 08:17:53 PM
At 0:49 someone says "those two were coming together". Possible runway incursion or some type of imminent collision?

Good catch by the controller and pushing the all stop.
Maybe a truck or something entered the runway?
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Lrusso on June 20, 2011, 08:37:36 PM
incident aircraft is taking off now.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: stingray0 on June 20, 2011, 08:42:24 PM
Here's how I got:

Lufthansa 411 (A340-600)
EgyptAir 986 (777-300)

MSR cleared to taxi from Terminal 4, Hotel to 22R via left Bravo (hold short Delta). He seems to have gone to far, missed the turn onto Bravo and/or mistook 22R for Bravo which he almost entered.
Meanwhile take-off clearence for a flight from 31L and following DLH form 22R. The actuall clearence of DLH is not audible due to Local #2 talking to VFR traffic on 125.25.
Local #1 shouting "cancel take-off clearence"... MSR had to enter 22R to the right to clear the situation afterwards (on ground frequency). Since DLH cleared 22R at Hotel he must have come to a stop between Golf and Hotel, MSR could only go right on 22R.

Definitely runway incursion, very near miss...

DLH has been delayed up to now (0035z almost two hours for refueling and hot brakes). MSR 986 left about an hour prior to that.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Lrusso on June 20, 2011, 08:45:41 PM
Here's how I got:

Lufthansa 411 (A340-600)
EgyptAir 986 (777-300)

MSR cleared to taxi from Terminal 4, Hotel to 22R via left Bravo (hold short Delta). He seems to have gone to far, missed the turn onto Bravo and/or mistook 22R for Bravo which he almost entered.
Meanwhile take-off clearence for a flight from 31L and following DLH form 22R. The actuall clearence of DLH is not audible due to Local #2 talking to VFR traffic on 125.25.
Local #1 shouting "cancel take-off clearence"... MSR had to enter 22R to the right to clear the situation afterwards (on ground frequency). Since DLH cleared 22R at Hotel he must have come to a stop between Golf and Hotel, MSR could only go right on 22R.

Definitely runway incursion, very near miss...

DLH has been delayed up to now (0035z almost two hours for refueling and hot brakes). MSR 986 left about an hour prior to that.

Makes sense thats why Egypt Air on the ground frequency got a 718 phone number to call upon landing in CAIRO.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: graysono on June 21, 2011, 08:16:20 AM
Good old AvHerald with more ... :-D

A Lufthansa Airbus A340-600, registration D-AIHM performing flight LH-411 from New York JFK,NY (USA) to Munich (Germany), was cleared for takeoff from JFK's runway 22R at approximately 18:52L (22:52Z), the next aircraft in sequence had been cleared to line up runway 22R, when the tower controller highy agitated called "CANCEL TAKEOFF CLEARANCE" at approximately 18:53L, Lufthansa 411 reported rejecting takeoff. The airplane slowed safely from high speed. Another crew on frequency commented that was very close. The Airbus A340 vacated the runway at taxiway H. The crew reported hot brakes and had the brakes checked out by emergency services.

At the same time an Egyptair Boeing 777-300, registration SU-GDR performing flight MS-986 from New York JFK,NY (USA) to Cairo (Egypt), was in contact with ground control taxiing for departure out of terminal 4 and had been instructed to turn left onto taxiway B hold short of D. The crew however missed the turn onto taxiway B and instead turned onto runway 22R at taxiway J. Subsequently ground control calmly instructed the aircraft to turn back onto J and turn right onto B, then changed plan and had the airplane taxi up runway 04R turn onto taxiway H and join taxiway B.

The Lufthansa A340 was able to depart again about 2 hours later and reached Munich with a delay of 1:45 hours. The Egyptair B777 departed New York about 75 minutes later and reached Cairo with a delay of 40 minutes.

Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Comfirm31L on June 21, 2011, 10:05:06 AM
It sounds to me DLH stopped in the vicinity of F, they say we taxi down the runway and exit at G. They came off at H after they decided to go back to the ramp. Also MSR came out onto 22R at H, not J.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: stingray0 on June 21, 2011, 10:09:31 AM
Sorry, the poster at AvHerald got it wrong. The audio recording has ground controller instructing MSR 986 to turn onto 22R, taxi down and exit at Juliet:

"EgyptAir 986 heavy, I need you to go right on runway 22R and hold short off Juliet"...
"EgyptAir 986 heavy, right on Juliet, taxi right on Bravo."...
"And EgyptAir 986 heavy, I need you to go right on Bravo and hold short off Golf."...
"EgyptAir 986 heavy, I need you to join Bravo at Hotel, please."...

According to this, MSR986 could not have entered 22R at Juliet. The last instruction also seems to indicate, that MSR986 messed up again and exited the rwy turning right onto Alpha.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK (TWR audio)
Post by: stingray0 on June 21, 2011, 10:22:18 AM
Here's the TWR audio
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK (GND audio)
Post by: stingray0 on June 21, 2011, 10:36:44 AM
Here's the GND audio
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: sonnycol on June 21, 2011, 12:56:25 PM
Thank goodness for good visibility. Something like this happens under IFR day or night, with low RVR, and you're looking at another Tenerife.

It's another example of the need for seamless awareness and communication between tower and ground controllers.

And it's another case of language /communication barrier causing confusion contributing to an incident, especially on the part of EgyptAir. Everyday stuff at JFK, and everyday risk.

Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: aevins on June 21, 2011, 02:00:21 PM
Main issues aside, I'm troubled by the fact that a crew who had just been involved in a serious runway incursion choose to and was allowed to continue on. This is of concern from a human factors standpoint. The stresses invoked on crews involved in such incidents are enough to distract them preforming their duties.

Flight crews involved in Category A runway incursions should be treated the same as controllers are - quarantined and debriefed/downloaded.

I look forward to reading the NTSB Report.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Comfirm31L on June 22, 2011, 12:21:05 AM
Main issues aside, I'm troubled by the fact that a crew who had just been involved in a serious runway incursion choose to and was allowed to continue on. This is of concern from a human factors standpoint. The stresses invoked on crews involved in such incidents are enough to distract them preforming their duties.

Flight crews involved in Category A runway incursions should be treated the same as controllers are - quarantined and debriefed/downloaded.

I look forward to reading the NTSB Report.

But that would result in a canceled flight... and we CANT have that.  :roll:
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: liveatcnoob on June 22, 2011, 09:35:54 AM
Sounds to me like the ground controller had a role in this. I couldn't understand some of her transmissions and I'm a native English speaker in a quiet room. Her last transmission on the mp3 makes it sound like she's gargling. Can't imagine what it sounded like in a noisy cockpit.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: shtank on June 22, 2011, 10:07:56 AM
It certainly sounds like MSR messed up big time. First of all, those broken lines indicating a runway are plain as day and you never cross those unless you have clearance to enter the runway (especially with the new rules where no matter what the controller wants you to do they have to clear you to cross or enter a runway). Also, any time you taxi onto a runway, you look both ways even if the controller cleared you. You never rely on a controller when entering a runway.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: MikeNYC on June 22, 2011, 10:47:32 AM
This also happened in daylight, good WX too.

Seems this got picked up by various media outlets:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/near_miss_on_jfk_runway_kLWyQHsO3KS1ncroiRTx6J
http://gothamist.com/2011/06/22/lufthansa_egyptair_planes_nearly_co.php
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/22/earlyshow/main20073243.shtml
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/22/faa-investigating-near-miss-on-jfk-runway/
(among many others).

Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: spliffer on June 22, 2011, 10:53:29 AM
Like George Carlin said "isn't it really a near hit.  Cause a near miss is a hit."
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: MikeNYC on June 22, 2011, 12:20:40 PM
Darlyn, JFK has ASDE-X (looks a bit like this: http://www.aero-farm.com/public/271043-asde-x.JPG ) surface area radar. I'm sure the surface movements were recorded. The system can also warn of impending collisions, and it may have done so in this case. The ASDE-X recordings could be released with the final report.

Here's some more info on the system: http://www.sensis.com/docs/128/p/

Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: compressorStall on June 22, 2011, 12:41:00 PM
I meant actual video footage from a security cam or something, not ground surveillance.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: MikeNYC on June 22, 2011, 12:46:52 PM
Darlyn, I understood that... but it's more likely that you'll see an official release of ASDE-X recording than a security camera operated by Port Authority or other organization than FAA. It would probably also yield more accurate data. It's not as "TV-friendly" so not as interesting on YouTube, but it is the official record. We could see something like this come from the FAA: http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/videos/media/simulation.html (based on an actual event).
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: StuSEL on June 22, 2011, 02:28:03 PM
Sounds to me like the ground controller had a role in this. I couldn't understand some of her transmissions and I'm a native English speaker in a quiet room. Her last transmission on the mp3 makes it sound like she's gargling. Can't imagine what it sounded like in a noisy cockpit.
"Egypt Air 986 Heavy, Kennedy Ground, Runway 22R taxi left turn on Bravo, hold short of Delta."
"Egypt Air 986, turn left on Bravo, hold short Delta."
She said it twice! And he read back twice!

You can hear the commotion in the ground recording. It's unreal. Aevins, you are totally correct. I can't believe they were allowed to continue.

Can't wait for the FAA committee's report on what we should do next. "All aircraft must be provided progressive taxi instructions by the ground controller." FAA Order JO 7110.65 Change 10. :roll:
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: shtank on June 22, 2011, 04:09:28 PM
@StuSEL, I think he knew to go on B, but missed it and figured he would just correct that by making a U-turn. Like I said earlier, it really is hard to have a runway incursion in an airport like kennedy if you are a vigilant pilot and not someone who just drives the plane around till they take off. When i took my PP training, i always wondered why you were allowed to log hours on the ground. My instructor said "because you start flying the plane as soon as you turn the engine on". he was right.

And I would really love to see the ASDE-X surveillance on this.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: derekjackson on June 22, 2011, 05:51:34 PM
Here's one more clip concerning the incident in question: edited clip consisting of both flights getting underway afterwards and you can easily see the contrast with Egyptair being given the dreaded number to call and Lufthansa being given the #1 position along with a message of having done a great job!
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: joeyb747 on June 22, 2011, 06:30:39 PM
http://xfinity.comcast.net/video/collision-averted-at-jfk-airport/2019593908/Comcast/2019334963/
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: anand on June 22, 2011, 07:41:59 PM
"Cancel take off! Cancel take off plans!" yelled a frightened air controller who saw that the Munich-bound Lufthansa....."

talk about media knowing nothing about what they are talking. First of all, controller didn't seem frightened (one of the coolest guy to hear) and somebody heard it as "cancel take off plans" and so that is what every single outlet is reporting. Do these guys, even make an attempt to write their own stuff anymore.. you can clearly hear him say, cancel take off clearance. Maybe I understood him, because I hear him often.. maybe.

sorry folks, just venting about the media and its mediocre efforts. Didn't mean to hijack this thread.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: moakley on June 22, 2011, 08:06:23 PM
A jet carrying 286 passengers slammed on its brakes and aborted a take-off this week at Kennedy Airport after another plane began taxiing towards the runway it was using, the Federal Aviation Administration said on Wednesday.

Lufthansa Flight 411 was cleared for take-off and EgyptAir Flight 986 was instructed to stay behind a "hold line", 250 feet behind the runway, at 6.50pm on Monday, said FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen. The EgyptAir crossed the line but did not enter the runway, she said.

"When air traffic control saw that, it cancelled the take-off for Lufthansa," Bergen said, adding that the Lufthansa plane stopped "a considerable distance" from the EgyptAir jet.
Advertisement: Story continues below

In radio recordings posted on the website LiveATC.net, a controller in the JFK tower is heard giving take-off clearance to the Lufthansa flight while another controller directs the EgyptAir plane.

"No! Whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa!" shouts someone in the tower as the EgyptAir plane crosses the hold-short line.

"Cancel take-off! Cancel take-off plans!" a controller shouts to the Lufthansa jet.

The Lufthansa plane, an Airbus A340, slammed on its brakes and came to a stop. Then it taxied off the runway. The pilot told controllers he was worried his brakes may have overheated, so controllers sent a Port Authority crew to help check the plane's landing gear.

"That was quite a show. Thought it was going to be a short career," a pilot who witnessed the aborted takeoff remarked on the radio.

The FAA was looking at "pilot deviation" because the EgyptAir plane, a Boeing 777, didn't follow air traffic instructions.

"The pilot was instructed to turn onto another taxiway but did not," Bergen said.

She said the FAA is investigating and will determine how close the two planes came.

EgyptAir officials said they had no knowledge of the close call.

The Lufthansa flight was heading to Munich, airline spokesman Martin Riecken said. After the takeoff was halted, the captain returned to the gate for a maintenance check while the passengers remained on the plane. The fight departed about two hours later, Riecken said.

There were no reports of injuries.

The New York Post reported that the EgyptAir flight was bound for Cairo. It was not immediately known how many people it was carrying. It departed about 90 minutes afterwards.

Bergen said investigators will listen to air traffic communications and look at radar replay.

Aviation authorities are increasingly worried about the danger of runway collisions as planes get bigger and airports more congested. In December a JetBlue plane took a wrong turn at Boston's Logan Airport and nearly taxied onto a runway where another plane was taking off.

The deadliest crash in aviation history was a runway collision. In 1977 a KLM Boeing 747 crashed into a Pan Am 747 on the same runway in Tenerife, in the Canary Islands, killing 583 people.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/jet-halts-takeoff-in-close-call-at-kennedy-airport-20110623-1gg1d.html#ixzz1Q3LaVP4F
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: athaker on June 22, 2011, 11:51:22 PM
"Cancel take off! Cancel take off plans!" yelled a frightened air controller who saw that the Munich-bound Lufthansa....."

talk about media knowing nothing about what they are talking. First of all, controller didn't seem frightened (one of the coolest guy to hear) and somebody heard it as "cancel take off plans" and so that is what every single outlet is reporting. Do these guys, even make an attempt to write their own stuff anymore.. you can clearly hear him say, cancel take off clearance. Maybe I understood him, because I hear him often.. maybe.

sorry folks, just venting about the media and its mediocre efforts. Didn't mean to hijack this thread.


I tend to agree with you, Anand.  There are certainly reporters browsing (lurking) these forums, and in some articles I've seen our speculative discussions (sometimes with typos included!) being reported as facts.  Gotta be watchful about the sources that are cited.

Anyway, as usual these KJFK controllers are all stars, and the real story should be "Controllers averted disaster at JFK"

These two videos came to mind, for those who want visuals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am392XmYBps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXpjBxD0Rhg (Go forward to 1:20 for the action)
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: sacex250 on June 23, 2011, 03:05:26 AM

Anyway, as usual these KJFK controllers are all stars, and the real story should be "Controllers averted disaster at JFK"


I get the impression that the Lufthansa had already initiated the RTO before the controller cancelled the clearance.

--
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: flyflyfly on June 23, 2011, 07:17:54 AM
Egyptair being given the dreaded number to call

LiveATC nightmare: imagine sitting in that taxiing aircraft and hearing your pilot being given "the number". Can I leave the plane please? Get a refund? ;-)

But it seems most of FAA's actions would only work with FAA licenses (http://www.martindale.com/aviation-aerospace-law/article_Curry-Pearson-Wooten-PLC_1251118.htm).
What are their options with foreign pilots - do they also keep records on them? Could they ban individual pilots from flying into the US? Or can they just speak to them and maybe "even" send them a letter?
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: VGS513 on June 23, 2011, 11:58:58 AM
I'm new.....how do you listen to an audio clip?
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: derekjackson on June 23, 2011, 12:03:13 PM
I'm new.....how do you listen to an audio clip?

Make sure you're logged in, then click on the mp3 links that are below some of our posts.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: contrails on June 23, 2011, 12:24:40 PM
Just curious, to those familiar with JFK. I am looking at the airport diagram from FlightAware, EgyptAir is located at terminal 4, right?... looking at the diagram I assume the EgyptAIr was at -H- just short of -A-(where he must have went too far forward...then thought 22R was -B- ... or went beyond -B- and was trying to turn around....but got too close to 22R).

Where I'm confused is that he is initially given clearance to 22R for takeoff, via left on -B-(from -H-), but why was he told to hold short at "-D-" ....???? with -ZA- being the shortest path to 22R from -B-? Was -ZA- (or even -E-) closed requiring him to go around the bend like that...or perhaps was it for sequencing/other traffic reasons?
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: eastern tristar on June 23, 2011, 01:21:48 PM
I think the line of planes waiting to take off that night were lined up on Charlie (parallel to 31R), so Egypt Air probably was heading toward the end of that line and at some point would have made a right off Bravo, crossed 31R maybe at Delta or further down, and then a right on Charlie to get in line for departure.

I haven't heard the tower controller or the ground controller on since this happened. What happens to them in a situation like this?
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: klkm on June 23, 2011, 04:25:02 PM


I haven't heard the tower controller or the ground controller on since this happened. What happens to them in a situation like this?

With any close call obviously an investigation is opened, tapes pulled etc.  In this case it was pretty obvious that pilot error was the cause and they would be commended for their quick reaction in stopping the takeoff.  They get the option of up to 45 days off for the traumatic experience of nearly seeing two planes crash.  It is paid time off, but if you take that option you do need to go see a psychologist and then you need their permission prior to being able to return to work.  Typically that means 2 meetings with them and they say when you feel up to it you can go back. 
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: qsecofr on June 24, 2011, 10:16:59 PM
Here's one more clip concerning the incident in question: edited clip consisting of both flights getting underway afterwards and you can easily see the contrast with Egyptair being given the dreaded number to call and Lufthansa being given the #1 position along with a message of having done a great job!

Not to detract from the incident, but there is a funny exchange on this clip between Ground and Mesaba 2407 about the 1:50 about a missing laptop.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: derekjackson on June 24, 2011, 10:46:56 PM
Here's one more clip concerning the incident in question: edited clip consisting of both flights getting underway afterwards and you can easily see the contrast with Egyptair being given the dreaded number to call and Lufthansa being given the #1 position along with a message of having done a great job!

Not to detract from the incident, but there is a funny exchange on this clip between Ground and Mesaba 2407 about the 1:50 about a missing laptop.

And that's why I deliberately left it in :-D
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: cageordie on June 25, 2011, 11:49:16 PM
Surely the appropriate links for an A340 rejected take off would be of the A340 rejected take off tests?

http://youtu.be/UocxPoUUnIQ

or a Lufthansa A380 RTO
http://youtu.be/AEdKE9_RBRY
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Marty Becker on June 26, 2011, 12:13:00 PM
Here is a video taken from inside LH411 after the incident.  It includes the cabin announcements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8_yK7Twz8E
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Whuts_goingon on June 26, 2011, 12:59:47 PM

And that's why I deliberately left it in :-D

We usually use some discretion with phone numbers, isn't that anymore?

Also just before the incident there was reported FOD on a taxi way somewhere, a piece of cardboard was found
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Vulturedoors on June 26, 2011, 11:56:38 PM
I'm a native English speaker (American) who is good with accents, and I can't understand half of what that female ground controller says.  She's talking much too fast and cutting off words.  I understood the pilots just fine, and ditto on the male ground controller.  That woman needs some training or something.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: flyflyfly on June 27, 2011, 02:24:42 AM
It includes the cabin announcements.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8_yK7Twz8E

Great. You can tell the captain's speech was in no way routine. Also they were being pretty honest - informing the passengers they aborted due to traffic on the runway - and giving (scared) passengers the option to leave.

I would just *love* to hear EgyptAir's cabin announcement after the incident... Did they explain anything? Try to blame it on the other aircraft? Blame controllers? Or probably just kept quiet... Lalala, nothing happened, lala, relax.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Whuts_goingon on June 27, 2011, 03:35:59 AM

I would just *love* to hear EgyptAir's cabin announcement after the incident... Did they explain anything? Try to blame it on the other aircraft? Blame controllers? Or probably just kept quiet... Lalala, nothing happened, lala, relax.

/off_the_record_mode_on
Egypt pilots always blame the airplane.... The airplane did it!
/off_the_record_mode_off
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Delta741 on June 28, 2011, 06:46:57 AM
Here's one more clip concerning the incident in question: edited clip consisting of both flights getting underway afterwards and you can easily see the contrast with Egyptair being given the dreaded number to call and Lufthansa being given the #1 position along with a message of having done a great job!

Not to detract from the incident, but there is a funny exchange on this clip between Ground and Mesaba 2407 about the 1:50 about a missing laptop.

And that's why I deliberately left it in :-D
Haha, I liked that too, kinda lightened up the mood a bit!  :-D
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: stingray0 on June 28, 2011, 06:59:52 PM
I'm a native English speaker (American) who is good with accents, and I can't understand half of what that female ground controller says.  She's talking much too fast and cutting off words.  I understood the pilots just fine, and ditto on the male ground controller.  That woman needs some training or something.
I'm wondering... Though I am not a native speeker of English, I do not have any difficulties understanding her. But maybe I just got used to the voices at Kennedy due to frequent listening? On the downside, I cannot identify accents.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: athaker on June 30, 2011, 04:00:04 AM
Surely the appropriate links for an A340 rejected take off would be of the A340 rejected take off tests?

Thank you. You're absolutely right, my mistake.  I confused the Egyptair and Lufthansa...DLH doesn't even fly 777s come to think of it.  Subconscious slip of Boeing bias?  :-P
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: mymussliveatc on July 10, 2011, 09:05:07 PM
I'm a native English speaker (American) who is good with accents, and I can't understand half of what that female ground controller says.  She's talking much too fast and cutting off words.  I understood the pilots just fine, and ditto on the male ground controller.  That woman needs some training or something.

I'm not a native English speaker and I understand every single word she says (although I logged hundreds of hours flown in U.S. airspace). I also understand 100% of what DLH pilots are saying. But with Egyptian pilots I don't think I'd understand anything other than readbacks.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: cptbrw on January 04, 2012, 04:41:15 PM
Found this today on the Flightaware Morning Newsletter:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081720/EgyptAir-flight-just-37-feet-JFKs-worst-runway-disaster.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081720/EgyptAir-flight-just-37-feet-JFKs-worst-runway-disaster.html)
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: joeyb747 on January 04, 2012, 07:48:40 PM
Lufthansa A340 and Egyptair 777:

http://xfinity.comcast.net/video/airliners-nearly-collide-during-takeoff-at-jfk-airport/2183518830/Comcast/2183455808/

The news reporter mentions the Tenerife Disaster...for those who may not be aware of that one, watch the Youtube video below...this was almost worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=c03Q_gTctSE
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: sacex250 on January 04, 2012, 09:22:51 PM
Lufthansa A340 and Egyptair 777:

http://xfinity.comcast.net/video/airliners-nearly-collide-during-takeoff-at-jfk-airport/2183518830/Comcast/2183455808/

The news reporter mentions the Tenerife Disaster...for those who may not be aware of that one, watch the Youtube video below...this was almost worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=c03Q_gTctSE

As was misstated in the article, the Tenerife disaster was not the result of a plane pulling onto a runway in front of another airplane; it was the result of an airplane taking off without a clearance while another airplane was on the runway in foggy conditions.

This incident never came close to being as bad as the Tenerife crash because the Lufthansa crew could see the EgyptAir plane and they aborted their takeoff early enough to stop.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: joeyb747 on January 04, 2012, 09:43:35 PM
Lufthansa A340 and Egyptair 777:

http://xfinity.comcast.net/video/airliners-nearly-collide-during-takeoff-at-jfk-airport/2183518830/Comcast/2183455808/

The news reporter mentions the Tenerife Disaster...for those who may not be aware of that one, watch the Youtube video below...this was almost worse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=c03Q_gTctSE

As was misstated in the article, the Tenerife disaster was not the result of a plane pulling onto a runway in front of another airplane; it was the result of an airplane taking off without a clearance while another airplane was on the runway in foggy conditions.

This incident never came close to being as bad as the Tenerife crash because the Lufthansa crew could see the EgyptAir plane and they aborted their takeoff early enough to stop.

Key word: ALMOST.

In terms of potential life loss, this COULD have been worse.  I am well aware of the Tenerife Disaster, and how it played out. 
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: NoMad on January 04, 2012, 10:13:58 PM
How shocking.  The news media blowing it out of proportion and exaggerating it to make a story out of something that isn't a story.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: flyflyfly on January 05, 2012, 04:21:58 PM
This incident never came close to being as bad as the Tenerife crash because the Lufthansa crew could see the EgyptAir plane and they aborted their takeoff early enough to stop.

I think they slammed the brakes when told to cancel by the controller, not because they saw Egypt Air on the runway. The latter may well have been too late. So, it's probably the controller to be credited first - and the fact that he could see the conflict (window or ground radar). Of course, Lufthansa's response was also good either way.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: sacex250 on January 05, 2012, 05:37:21 PM
This incident never came close to being as bad as the Tenerife crash because the Lufthansa crew could see the EgyptAir plane and they aborted their takeoff early enough to stop.

I think they slammed the brakes when told to cancel by the controller, not because they saw Egypt Air on the runway. The latter may well have been too late. So, it's probably the controller to be credited first - and the fact that he could see the conflict (window or ground radar). Of course, Lufthansa's response was also good either way.
When listening to the audio, the first officer immediately replies to the tower that they're rejecting the takeoff.  He wouldn't have done that if they weren't already slowing down.  Plus, the Lufthansa had the best view of what was happening, if the tower could see that EgyptAir had missed the turn then the Lufthansa pilots could certainly see a 777 heading onto the runway in front of them.  
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: tszarek on January 07, 2012, 04:04:55 AM
How shocking.  The news media blowing it out of proportion and exaggerating it to make a story out of something that isn't a story.

The NY Post has a better article that at least clarifies that the EgyptAir was 37 feet from the runway, but the closest the planes got was 1500 feet.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/feet_from_disaster_at_jfk_e4aV6YHOoPU1UQEHnzAHPP (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/feet_from_disaster_at_jfk_e4aV6YHOoPU1UQEHnzAHPP)

While it might be out of proportion, this is still very much a story that the public should be aware of, if for no other reason than to keep pressure on regulator agencies to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: NoMad on January 08, 2012, 06:51:10 PM
I agree it is a serious incident.  It's the reporting that was ridiculous.  This was never even close to being a collision but the reports on TV screaming about how this was a near death incident.
Title: Re: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
Post by: Robert Larson on January 10, 2012, 06:59:16 PM
I noticed that while the article describes the Lufthansa as an A340 they have a picture of an A380 there. More sensational that way I suppose.