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Air Traffic Monitoring => Aviation Audio Clips => Topic started by: nitroboie on February 04, 2006, 09:45:11 PM

Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: nitroboie on February 04, 2006, 09:45:11 PM
This happened around 1917 EST, tower controller gave a pilot (Siberian 6253) instructions to hold at a certian taxi way, but the pilot did otherwise and ended up in the wrong spot. Then, the pilot wouldn't repeat the correct holding instructions. You can tell by the tone of the ATC's voice that he was getting very agitated. The clip is ALOT easier to understand if you find a map of the airport.

Enjoy
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: davolijj on February 04, 2006, 10:01:59 PM
YIKES!!!  You gotta respect the guys over there at Kennedy who deal with this stuff every night.  Great clip nitro, thanks for sharing.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: jamall02864 on February 04, 2006, 11:08:54 PM
wow great clip     unbelevable :oops: :oops: :oops: but i dount know what happend complet ly   that guy got very mad at him      :oops:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: mattkbdl on February 05, 2006, 12:34:04 AM
Wow that was incredible.  Those controllers really go through a lot with foreign pilots down there.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: DTAK on February 05, 2006, 02:23:57 AM
Great post.  Almost expect him to blow a whistle...
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: Fryy on February 05, 2006, 07:00:37 AM
Jeez that was crazy. It sounds like a language barrier was in the way here.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: n57flyguy on February 05, 2006, 08:44:25 AM
here is a map of jfk who are interested....
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: n57flyguy on February 05, 2006, 08:54:07 AM
LOLOLOL.....Found that pretty entertaininng, although that really pissed off the controller. They are great controllers. Ill try to edit the map to get Siberians route, just for fun.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: n57flyguy on February 05, 2006, 09:01:50 AM
Bit harder than it seamed, wont be able to do it. That is confusing :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: nitroboie on February 05, 2006, 09:41:18 AM
Here's what I came up with... green is where he was supposed to go, yellow is where he went, and red is at the point where the controller told him to stop his plain. BTW, the colors weren't done of purpose, I just realized it after I edited the picture (green, yellow, red). :lol:
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: n57flyguy on February 05, 2006, 10:01:28 AM
Thanks man! I started that exact thing and thought it was wrong :x Oh well, thanks alot anyway.


SEAHAWKS!!!!!!!!
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: tag18 on February 05, 2006, 03:32:51 PM
I believe that the carrier in question was "Iberian", but don't quote me on that.

At any rate, if a foreign operator should be familiar with any english terminology, the words "Hold Short" would be pretty high on my list.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: spallanzani on February 05, 2006, 03:38:22 PM
I also think it's Iberian...

But that clip is definitely incredible.

I've got some other situations that look like that, it's always very impressive.

I've noticed that the hold short instructions are unkown to many foreign carriers. For example, at Montreal, when controllers ask to Air France to hold short, the french way to say it, they can't understand. Same thing for carriers like Cubana, CSA, etc (KLM and British are not included). Controllers end up to say "hold position" or "line-up" instead of "taxi into position".
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: Yankee on February 05, 2006, 04:22:07 PM
I also tought this was "Iberia" / "Iberian"... but the controller is talking about the G-A-T... and why would an Iberia plane park at the General Aviation Terminal?  8)
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: n57flyguy on February 06, 2006, 06:47:05 AM
Quote from: Yankee
I also tought this was "Iberia" / "Iberian"... but the controller is talking about the G-A-T... and why would an Iberia plane park at the General Aviation Terminal?  8)



Iberian, siberian, its all good 8)
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: Yankee on February 06, 2006, 11:21:59 AM
Well, at least I tought Iberia pilots would understand english  :roll:
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: n57flyguy on February 06, 2006, 02:05:18 PM
Quote from: Yankee
Well, at least I tought Iberia pilots would understand english  :roll:

They SHoud sounds like HO SHOR FWER WHITE
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: r0bCDW on February 06, 2006, 03:06:57 PM
it must be sooooo hard to work @ JFK  :shock:
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: kismac on February 09, 2006, 12:59:28 PM
"STOP YOUR PLANE, DON'T MOVE..." LOL that was great!
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: DTAK on February 09, 2006, 03:46:14 PM
I listened to it again last night.  Iberian 6253 Heavy

Its just hilarious..

"That guy cut in front of you American 952??"
"Uh, yeah, he's bigger than us though."

"American 952 Heavy didn't mean for you to get stuck behind this..." this what? LOL  

And then we have The Pass...
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: n57flyguy on February 09, 2006, 04:49:43 PM
Type rated but cant master atc communications, go back to ground school!
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: Fryy on February 09, 2006, 05:44:50 PM
Quote from: DTAK
I listened to it again last night.  Iberian 6253 Heavy

"That guy cut in front of you American 952??"
"Uh, yeah, he's bigger than us though."



I thought that was pretty damn funny too
 :D
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: nitroboie on February 09, 2006, 06:37:03 PM
I'm still trying to figure out what the pilot said after the ATC told him to taxi to the end of the runway 58 seconds into the audio clip:

ATC: "Iberian you need to taxi to the end of the runway it looks like, is that correct?"

Iberian 6253: "Correct... ????????"
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: mkreilein on February 10, 2006, 12:34:01 AM
This guy is my FAVORITE KJFK controller EVER.

I've heard him say "Stop your plane" one other time when GND giving taxi inst to 4L.

He's also famous for the exchange with UAL203 and the reply "Thanks I'm tryin' see ya babe."  When a pilot says "Have a good night".
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: AmericaWestCMH on February 10, 2006, 07:03:57 AM
Is this the same controller that was on the TLC program about ATC that showed LGA, EWR, and JFK?
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: PHL Approach on February 10, 2006, 08:35:32 AM
Quote from: AmericaWestCMH
Is this the same controller that was on the TLC program about ATC that showed LGA, EWR, and JFK?


Nope
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: taf158 on February 10, 2006, 05:46:19 PM
I agree, this guy is the best JFK controller. He doesn't take any s$i% from the pilots, and moves everyone around the best he can. I remember a few years ago hearing him get extremely mad a UAL pilot, because she was not reading the hold short clnc, and eventually had to hand the radio over to the PNF. Great clip, thanks for sharing!
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: nitroboie on February 10, 2006, 07:00:28 PM
A similar situation happened again tonight, except this time even he gets confused at one point . Here's the clip. :P
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: davolijj on February 10, 2006, 09:05:07 PM
Quote from: nitroboie
A similar situation happened again tonight, except this time even he gets confused at one point . Here's the clip. :P


My God...that is freakin' halarious.  I think they call the the New York treatment.  Welcome to the USA. :lol:
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: knish1231 on February 11, 2006, 09:29:40 AM
I would imagine that it could be quite difficult understanding the commands when english is not your first language.  These two examples are caused, in my opinion, by the pilot trying to be hasty and fast and not trully listening to the commands of the ATC.  

I wonder what kind of prep these pilots go thru before arrival to JFK, cause they know they will have to taxi and follow commands in english?
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: spallanzani on February 11, 2006, 06:25:43 PM
Quote from: knish1231
I would imagine that it could be quite difficult understanding the commands when english is not your first language.


Depends a lot on where you come from. In some places, even if first language is not english, they have no problem understanding at all (like in Quebec). I would say foreign companies should really train their pilots to US phraseology much more then what they actually do (if ever done?).
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: n57flyguy on February 12, 2006, 11:51:58 AM
Thats just funny thanks for those clips.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: Greeney on February 12, 2006, 04:25:01 PM
I love NY.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: webdenis12 on February 13, 2006, 01:31:04 PM
that Iberian pilot really screw things up. I was laughing so hard at talk between ATC and him  :P  :P

HOLD   SHORT    ON  4L    lol :P
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 14, 2006, 09:08:07 AM
I tell you what:  The ground controller, after giving the Iberian pilot a very hard time for not repeating "Hold Short," made a mistake by not requiring the  "Hold Short" readback from the American Airlines pilot at the very end of the audio clip.

"Left Yankee, Right 3-1 Right, short  of 4 L," was the AA pilot's readback, which is procedurally incorrect.  The controller MUST hear "HOLD short" rwy XX and the controller let it go.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: spallanzani on February 14, 2006, 09:45:35 AM
Well.. I hear a lot of "short of", which is a short way of saying "hold short of". It's probably not the right way (officially) to say it, but we hear it quite often...

The controller was on the Iberian probably because his answers weren't clear at all. Moreover, he told the pilot he wasn't able to understand what he was saying.. things like "....hold..." are not very clear. For the second file (8081 heavy), readbacks weren't good at all:

"-Tam 8081 right Hotel, left 04L, hold short of Golf
-Right on Hotel and hold short of Golf"

That's incomplete, especially when a runway is used for taxi.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 14, 2006, 09:59:39 AM
Quote from: spallanzani
Well.. I hear a lot of "short of", which is a short way of saying "hold short of". It's probably not the right way (officially) to say it, but we hear it quite often...


There is no short way of communicating "Hold Short," at least in US aviation. If the controller instructs an aircraft to hold short, the pilot MUST specifically read back "Hold Short."    If the pilot does not read this back exactly, the controller is obligated to correct it.

This was a requirement put in place several years ago as part of the FAA's crackdown on runway incursions.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: mkreilein on February 24, 2006, 12:32:09 AM
Quote from: KSYR-pjr
I tell you what:  The ground controller, after giving the Iberian pilot a very hard time for not repeating "Hold Short," made a mistake by not requiring the  "Hold Short" readback from the American Airlines pilot at the very end of the audio clip.

"Left Yankee, Right 3-1 Right, short  of 4 L," was the AA pilot's readback, which is procedurally incorrect.  The controller MUST hear "HOLD short" rwy XX and the controller let it go.


Actually, it's not incorrect at all.

ONLY ATC is required to use proper phraseology.  The pilot IS required to readback the instruction, but the definition of "readback" for a pilot is a LOT looser than the definition for how ATC instructs a plane.

If you look at Order 7110.65P Chapter 3, Section 7, there's never any example of what the readback is supposed to sound like.

ATC has to give the standard "Callsign, Kennedy Tower, wind XXX at XX, Rwy 22L, cleared to land".  They HAVE to give their name on initial contact, they HAVE to make "cleared to land" the last thing they say.  However, it's perfectly OK for the PILOT to say "clear to land 22L".

The demand of exact phraseology is on ATC.  There are sections saying how you should tell an A/C to give a readback, but nothing about what has to be contained in it.

At least that I could find that is.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 24, 2006, 08:19:11 AM
Quote from: mkreilein
Actually, it's not incorrect at all.


Are you a pilot or active (non-VATSIM) controller?

I am a very active general aviation pilot just a few hours shy of the 1,000 hour mark obtained in the last four years.  My Bonanza is based at a class C airport and I have flown many times into Boston Logan airport, as well as the busiest class Ds of the northeast US (Teterboro and Bedford/Hanscom).   I have also flown my Bonanza across the US, from NY to California and back through Denver International.  The purpose of stating all this is merely to establish my credibility.

With regards to US ATC communications, I can attest to the fact that controllers absolutely must hear a readback of "hold short" (both words) if they issue a hold short command.   Where this is in their controller's handbook, I couldn't say.  However, I have heard on more occasions than I can count on my fingers a pilot not including "HOLD short" in their readback andthe controller immediately and tersely responding, "Sir, I must* hear the words HOLD SHORT," followed by a sheepish, "Hold short runway XX, Cessna XXX."  

Apparently, this also applies to "Position and Hold" as well.  One time last year at Boston Logan I was instructed to position and hold.   In an attempt to keep radio chatter down to the bare minimum, I opted to respond "WILCO, Bonanza XXX" and the controller did the same thing. "Sir, please read back the entire instruction, including the word HOLD."
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: n57flyguy on February 24, 2006, 10:08:50 AM
Quote from: KSYR-pjr
Quote from: mkreilein
Actually, it's not incorrect at all.


Are you a pilot or active (non-VATSIM) controller?

I am a very active general aviation pilot just a few hours shy of the 1,000 hour mark obtained in the last four years.  My Bonanza is based at a class C airport and I have flown many times into Boston Logan airport, as well as the busiest class Ds of the northeast US (Teterboro and Bedford/Hanscom).   I have also flown my Bonanza across the US, from NY to California and back through Denver International.  The purpose of stating all this is merely to establish my credibility.

With regards to US ATC communications, I can attest to the fact that controllers absolutely must hear a readback of "hold short" (both words) if they issue a hold short command.   Where this is in their controller's handbook, I couldn't say.  However, I have heard on more occasions than I can count on my fingers a pilot not including "HOLD short" in their readback andthe controller immediately and tersely responding, "Sir, I must* hear the words HOLD SHORT," followed by a sheepish, "Hold short runway XX, Cessna XXX."  

Apparently, this also applies to "Position and Hold" as well.  One time last year at Boston Logan I was instructed to position and hold.   In an attempt to keep radio chatter down to the bare minimum, I opted to respond "WILCO, Bonanza XXX" and the controller did the same thing. "Sir, please read back the entire instruction, including the word HOLD."


Agreed, sounds right to me, its practical runway and airport safety to readback Poistion and Hold to the controller when on a taxi way or runway. As one at any towered airport when a pilot taxis to the runway, youll always hear the controller : United XXX, taxi to runway 27L, position and hold. Pilot: Taxi runway 27L position and hold. Common safety rules that could make all the difference sometimes.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: Tomato on February 24, 2006, 10:25:29 AM
On a slight different note - how much does it matter if the pilot reads back their callsign before the instruction, and at that - an abbreviated in-flight instruction?

eg. November 123, 3 thousand.
-instead of-
eg. Climb to 3 thousand, November 123.

...?
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: w0x0f on February 24, 2006, 10:42:19 AM
This explains it quite clearly.  Don Brown is required reading for all pilots.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182636-1.html

w0x0f
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 24, 2006, 11:01:54 AM
Quote from: w0x0f
Don Brown is required reading for all pilots.


Absolutely!  My favorite monthly column.  I am very critical of my communication skills (always listen to the LiveATC archives) and have really tightened this up since I began reading his columns a few years ago.

Reading aviation accident analyses in the magazine NTSB Reporter or the various columns in Flying, Aviation Safety, and Plane and Pilot also reinforces proper communication (when to say it) and phraseology (what to say) skills.  

The accident that sticks with me and demonstrates poor communication is an accident where a C150 was cleared for takeoff and a second C172 announced ready, but failed to include his location.  This C172 was actually at a taxiway intersection some 1,000 feet further down the runway.  The tower controller, thinking he was the C172 he saw immediately behind the C150 taking the runway, gave him a position and hold instruction.  

The C172 taxied onto the runway and right into the path of the rolling C150.  All aboard both aircraft were killed as a result of the collision.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: dave on February 24, 2006, 11:34:21 AM
You won't find the requirement to read back HOLD SHORT instructions in the 7110.65.  It is a local requirement imposed at almost every busy airport, and is not optional, as Peter points out.  In fact, listen to the ATIS recording at almost every busy airport, and you will hear the words:

"Read back all hold short instructions."

This is required of all pilots, and is a local requirement.  The local requirements override everything, regardless of whether you don't find something in a regulatory publication or not.

And I am not sure whether it is in the FAR's or not....no time to look it up right now.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 24, 2006, 11:44:07 AM
Quote from: Tomato
On a slight different note - how much does it matter if the pilot reads back their callsign before the instruction, and at that - an abbreviated in-flight instruction?


Since the callsign of the aircraft is most likely second nature, many pilots will read-back the instruction first, then add their callsign.  This is actually an effective memory aid for those pilots, like myself, who are able to remember most instructions (clearances and taxi instructions excluded) without writing them down.

Hear the numbers, repeat the numbers first (which plants the numbers in the short term memory - the same memory trick works when meeting someone new and hearing their name), then add the callsign after the instruction.

Oh, and the callsign is never abbreviated by the pilot without the controller first abbreviating it.  Many pilots make this mistake.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 24, 2006, 11:52:14 AM
Quote from: Tomato
... an abbreviated in-flight instruction?

eg. November 123, 3 thousand.
-instead of-
eg. Climb to 3 thousand, November 123....?


I missed your second question in my previous reply.   Believe it or not, neither reply in your example is technically correct.  

When flying IFR in the US, the correct readback for an altitude change instruction is actually:

"Leaving one thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123,"   or  "One thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123."

The first part of the readback allows the controller (I believe - one of the controllers here would need to verify)  to quickly verify the altitude on his scope (what is really the altitude from the aircraft's mode C transponder corrected to the local barometric pressure) matches what the pilot is seeing on his altimeter.

To demonstrate that this phraseology is correct, I have very often heard an incorrect, or abbreviated reply met with an immediate, "Say altitide leaving" by the controller.  In busy airspace, this additional exchange ties up the frequency that much more.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: mkreilein on February 24, 2006, 12:59:08 PM
Quote from: KSYR-pjr
Quote from: mkreilein
Actually, it's not incorrect at all.


Are you a pilot or active (non-VATSIM) controller?

I am a very active general aviation pilot just a few hours shy of the 1,000 hour mark obtained in the last four years.  My Bonanza is based at a class C airport and I have flown many times into Boston Logan airport, as well as the busiest class Ds of the northeast US (Teterboro and Bedford/Hanscom).   I have also flown my Bonanza across the US, from NY to California and back through Denver International.  The purpose of stating all this is merely to establish my credibility.

With regards to US ATC communications, I can attest to the fact that controllers absolutely must hear a readback of "hold short" (both words) if they issue a hold short command.   Where this is in their controller's handbook, I couldn't say.  However, I have heard on more occasions than I can count on my fingers a pilot not including "HOLD short" in their readback andthe controller immediately and tersely responding, "Sir, I must* hear the words HOLD SHORT," followed by a sheepish, "Hold short runway XX, Cessna XXX."  

Apparently, this also applies to "Position and Hold" as well.  One time last year at Boston Logan I was instructed to position and hold.   In an attempt to keep radio chatter down to the bare minimum, I opted to respond "WILCO, Bonanza XXX" and the controller did the same thing. "Sir, please read back the entire instruction, including the word HOLD."


Nah, just an enthusiast.  I plan on getting some flying time in there as soon as I get the $ for it as soon as I get a real job for that.

That's a lot of "as soon as-es", but you gotta have a goal right.

Just read stuff on my own time, try to keep up with things, listen to ATC on here, and just trying to keep straight the many things I hear from here and there.

I hadn't heard of that.  Always had heard (and it seems from the "quality" of some of the "readbacks" you hear) that the proper phraseology was on the ATC side less than the pilot side.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: ian on February 24, 2006, 01:37:47 PM
Quote from: KSYR-pjr
Quote from: Tomato
... an abbreviated in-flight instruction?

eg. November 123, 3 thousand.
-instead of-
eg. Climb to 3 thousand, November 123....?


I missed your second question in my previous reply.   Believe it or not, neither reply in your example is technically correct.  

When flying IFR in the US, the correct readback for an altitude change instruction is actually:

"Leaving one thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123,"   or  "One thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123."

The first part of the readback allows the controller (I believe - one of the controllers here would need to verify)  to quickly verify the altitude on his scope (what is really the altitude from the aircraft's mode C transponder corrected to the local barometric pressure) matches what the pilot is seeing on his altimeter.

To demonstrate that this phraseology is correct, I have very often heard an incorrect, or abbreviated reply met with an immediate, "Say altitide leaving" by the controller.  In busy airspace, this additional exchange ties up the frequency that much more.


Actually, "out of 5 for 3, cessna xxx" will suffice...
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: w0x0f on February 24, 2006, 02:32:40 PM
Quote from: dave
You won't find the requirement to read back HOLD SHORT instructions in the 7110.65.    It is a local requirement

Actually it is required of the controller to receive it in the .65.  Par 3-7-2 d

This is a national requirement, not just local.  Nothing in the .65 is regulatory for pilots.


http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0307.html#3-7-2

d. Request a read back of runway hold short instructions when it is not received from the pilot/vehicle operator.



w0x0f
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: davolijj on February 24, 2006, 02:48:51 PM
It's also in the section governing ATIS content:


Section 9. Automatic Terminal Information
Service Procedures


2-9-3. CONTENT

j. A statement which advises the pilot to read back instructions to hold short of a runway. The air traffic manager may elect to remove this requirement 60 days after implementation provided that removing the statement from the ATIS does not result in increased requests from aircraft for read back of hold short instructions.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: w0x0f on February 24, 2006, 03:00:02 PM
"The first part of the readback allows the controller (I believe - one of the controllers here would need to verify) to quickly verify the altitude on his scope (what is really the altitude from the aircraft's mode C transponder corrected to the local barometric pressure) matches what the pilot is seeing on his altimeter. "

Mode C altitude readouts must be verified on interfacility handoffs and on initial track start.  So the pilot must state their current altitude, or if climbing or descending, the altitude they are passing through and their assigned altitude.

  http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0502.html#5-2-17

w0x0f
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: w0x0f on February 24, 2006, 03:16:08 PM
"Leaving one thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123," or "One thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123."


I posted an article by Don Brown earlier in this thread.  Here is an excerpt of why you should use your call sign first and readback instructions second.

What controllers think they are saying is this:

"November 12345 descend and maintain one five thousand"

In the real world, it comes out like this:

"(Click)ber 12345 descend and maintain one five thousand"

For airlines and such, if there is a similar callsign on the frequency, the book requires us to repeat the call sign after the flight number. That's because it comes out like this:

"(Click)ner 123 Airliner descend and maintain flight level three three zero."

Okay, now we go back and tie in the original example of a bad readback.

"(Click)ner123 descend and maintain flight level three three zero."

"(Click) three zero Airliner123."

Let's try to do it halfway right and see if there is a difference.

"(Click)ner 123 descend and maintain flight level three three zero."

"(Click)ht level two three zero Airliner123."

"(Click)gative Airliner123 descend and maintain flight level THREE three zero."



So you see, good phraseology habits are incumbent upon all parties in aviation communications.  Safety first. Hot dog phraseology may sound cool and you may hear air carrier pilots using it, but it actually creates more workload because of readback again requests.  I've been in aviation for 30 years and I still use good phraseology to this day.  I get very few requests for "say again."  I was taught that way from the beginning and I hope the younger and more impressionable aviators on this excellent site will do the same.

w0x0f
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: ian on February 24, 2006, 05:31:06 PM
Quote from: w0x0f
"The first part of the readback allows the controller (I believe - one of the controllers here would need to verify) to quickly verify the altitude on his scope (what is really the altitude from the aircraft's mode C transponder corrected to the local barometric pressure) matches what the pilot is seeing on his altimeter. "

Mode C altitude readouts must be verified on interfacility handoffs and on initial track start.  So the pilot must state their current altitude, or if climbing or descending, the altitude they are passing through and their assigned altitude.

  http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0502.html#5-2-17

w0x0f

when you switch from say memphis center to atlanta center, they dont ask you for a read out of the altitude, they just give you an altimeter setting that is close to you...this is also done when changing from say one sector of memphis center to another sector.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: davolijj on February 24, 2006, 06:23:28 PM
Quote from: ian
when you switch from say memphis center to atlanta center, they dont ask you for a read out of the altitude, they just give you an altimeter setting that is close to you...


Most pilot give their altitude when they check in on the frequency.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: spallanzani on February 24, 2006, 06:34:42 PM
In Canada, the altitude confirmation is mostly given by the pilot when checking in, as JD said.

If a pilot calls "Departure Air Canada 123 with you", the controller will ask in 95% of the cases "Air Canada 123 say passing altitude". If controller is too much busy, he'll try to ask the pilot as soon as possible. But most of the pilots will say "Departures American 802 out of 2.6 for 5".

When arriving, even if pilot doesn't say his altitude, most of the time the ATC won't ask the passing altitude since he supposes the altitude was confirmed after takeoff. You can hear sometimes "Air France 356 traffic 3 o'clock 4 miles, Cessna 172 at 1,500 ft unverified".

If altitude sent is not correct, controller has to issue the altimeter setting a second time and the pilot has to check the altitude again. If it still doesn't work, pilot has to turn off the transponder and leave class C airspace...

For the HOLD SHORT instructions, well if it's mandatory, controllers don't do their job correctly. I hear a lot of abbreviated expressions both on CA and US feeds and rarely the controller will obstinate on it, unless it is not clear.

To me: "left on Golf and short of 28" is clear enough. But I fully understand confusion could happen one time and that could be dangerous.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: digger on February 24, 2006, 06:57:03 PM
Quote
To me: "left on Golf and short of 28" is clear enough. But I fully understand confusion could happen one time and that could be dangerous.


Just like so many other regulations, sometime, somewhere, *someone* got things messed up, and now there's a regulation that *everybody* is required to follow, every time. Maybe not everybody follows those regulations all the time, but those that don't, put themselves at risk of being caught in an infraction of the rules, even if there's no actual incident or accident, and if there *is* an accident...
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: spallanzani on February 24, 2006, 06:58:58 PM
Exactly, you're totally right.

That's why I said that one time it could bring a confusion and etc.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 24, 2006, 11:13:27 PM
Quote from: ian
Actually, "out of 5 for 3, cessna xxx" will suffice...


Sloppy phraseology, at least in the US.   Sure, many say it.  In fact, it seems that a lot of very low time pilots like to use that example to sound like the ariline pilots.  Doesn't mean it's correct.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 24, 2006, 11:38:08 PM
Quote from: w0x0f
So you see, good phraseology habits are incumbent upon all parties in aviation communications.  Safety first. Hot dog phraseology may sound cool and you may hear air carrier pilots using it, but it actually creates more workload because of readback again requests.


Well put.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 24, 2006, 11:40:50 PM
Quote from: ian
when you switch from say memphis center to atlanta center, they dont ask you for a read out of the altitude, they just give you an altimeter setting that is close to you...this is also done when changing from say one sector of memphis center to another sector.


Are you implying that pilots who switch from Memphis Center to Atlanta Center never include their altitude on the initial check-in?
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 25, 2006, 12:04:31 AM
Quote from: davolijj
Quote from: ian
when you switch from say memphis center to atlanta center, they dont ask you for a read out of the altitude, they just give you an altimeter setting that is close to you...


Most pilot give their altitude when they check in on the frequency.


From the US AIM 5-3-1. ARTCC Communications, altitudes are part of the suggested check-in.   See the following quote.

(http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0503.html#5-3-1)

Quote
2. The following phraseology should be utilized by pilots for establishing contact with the designated facility:

(a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level," or "climbing to," or "descending to," as appropriate; and the aircraft's present vacating altitude, if applicable.

EXAMPLE-
1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).

NOTE-
Exact altitude or flight level means to the nearest 100 foot increment. Exact altitude or flight level reports on initial contact provide ATC with information required prior to using Mode C altitude information for separation purposes.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: ian on February 25, 2006, 01:49:31 AM
Quote from: KSYR-pjr
Quote from: ian
when you switch from say memphis center to atlanta center, they dont ask you for a read out of the altitude, they just give you an altimeter setting that is close to you...this is also done when changing from say one sector of memphis center to another sector.


Are you implying that pilots who switch from Memphis Center to Atlanta Center never include their altitude on the initial check-in?


im sorry, what i meant was that they do not ask your altitude, of course checking in is something like "atlanta center, cessna xxx with you level 5" then the reply would be something like "cessna xxx, atlanta center roger, xxxx altimeterr 30.14"

i am by no means a low time pilot, so how about you leave your chastising me at the door.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 25, 2006, 08:20:03 AM
Quote from: ian
i am by no means a low time pilot, so how about you leave your chastising me at the door.


Relax.  It was meant as a fact, not as a slam against you.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: DTAK on February 25, 2006, 04:57:07 PM
Wow, either this thread is waaaaay of course now, or I need new charts...
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 25, 2006, 06:36:59 PM
Quote from: DTAK
Wow, either this thread is waaaaay of course now, or I need new charts...


It actually is not that far off.  It started with the audio clip of a ground incident at JFK and evolved into a discussion about communications and phraseology as a direct result of an exchange within that audio clip.

Phraseology, like "teaching spins," "what causes lift," and "high wing versus low wing," is a very active topic in aviation-related groups.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: DTAK on February 26, 2006, 03:05:02 AM
Quote from: KSYR-pjr
Quote from: DTAK
Wow, either this thread is waaaaay of course now, or I need new charts...


It actually is not that far off.  It started with the audio clip of a ground incident at JFK and evolved


Oh, I know how it started.  I don't need a lecture from you.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: davolijj on February 26, 2006, 07:26:44 AM
Quote from: DTAK
Oh, I know how it started.  I don't need a lecture from you.


I didn't see anyone here lecturing....lighten up a bit.
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: digger on February 26, 2006, 08:04:20 AM
It's that "New York atitude" from the clips--it's contagious...      :lol:
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: Jason on February 26, 2006, 08:34:55 AM
Quote from: digger
It's that "New York atitude" from the clips--it's contagious...      :lol:


..that must be it.

These "discussion forums" are exactly what the name implies: Where people can freely talk and express their opinions about a topic (LiveATC.net related) and support their statement(s). This doesn't mean you can't agree or disagree with someone's opinion, that's the exact opposite of a discussion, but please just try and lighten up a bit, understand other member's opinion(s) and let's all have fun enjoying what we all love to do here. I don't want to have to lock this thread.

Also--Read someone’s entire post before responding back to it. I've found myself before responding to an opinion that later changed in his/her post and found myself in an odd situation.

These ATC audio clips can be very controversial and are highly based on the situation the controller(s) were presented with at the time, which we most likely don't know.

So--now that all I have to say has been said, let's enjoy these great clips that our members post and in most cases commend the controller and/or pilot for a job well done.  This sure was an interesting clip with that NY attitude "flare" (no pun intended) to it.  Communication can be very tricky at times and shouldn't be taken for granted.   I have a friend in Korea who is an ATCS in the military and has a very difficult time understanding the pilots with thick foreign accents.

Thanks for your understanding,
Jason
Title: Busy night at JFK
Post by: KSYR-pjr on February 26, 2006, 09:04:15 AM
Quote from: DTAK
Oh, I know how it started.  I don't need a lecture from you.


Two words, chief:  De CAF.
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: MC8RKTS800 on July 07, 2006, 10:52:19 PM
The file is no longer up i was looking to get this file if somebody could repost.
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: Difatality on January 15, 2008, 09:11:31 PM
Wow this guys really have busy nights
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: papa_whisky_zny on February 13, 2008, 09:45:30 PM
Actually, when a pilot checks on my frequency, if he was switched from a sector in my facility I am not required to verify his altitude.  If he was switched from ANOTHER facility I am required to verify his altitude.  Most won't but it is in the 7110.65.
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: Mindz on September 11, 2010, 02:10:15 PM
The file is no longer up i was looking to get this file if somebody could repost.

yes, can anyone repost please?
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: glencar on September 12, 2010, 09:21:16 PM
At one point Air China and Korean were the worst airlines to communicate with. Iberian has been in the lead for some time now. I'm actually fling them in a couple of weeks over in Spain but no, I'm not flying them from JFK to Spain.
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: tak13 on October 03, 2010, 02:59:13 AM
Can someone reupload this again? Thanks!
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: AB9IL on May 24, 2011, 04:44:11 PM
Yes, what happened to the original file?  Kennedy is definitely an entertaining airport to monitor, especially during the evening  international push.  All hell seems to break loose during Friday nights when there are thunderstorms, fog, or snow...
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: phil-s on May 24, 2011, 10:10:06 PM
Yes, if someone can reload? I probably read it but that was years ago.

On a more positive note, who are the best non-native English speakers out there? It's a little tricky because it sounds like some of the pilots for foreign carriers are native English speakers. Cathay Pacific for sure but also Emirates and some other mid-east airlines. 

I vote for without a doubt for KLM as consistently the best, followed by Lufthansa (though there's a lot of variation with them). Aeromexico, Taca, and Lacsa also have some really good English speakers.  And then there's Air India, native English speakers, and with practice perfectly understandable by us Americans - but it does take some practice.
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: klkm on May 26, 2011, 12:09:53 PM
I rarely have problems with Air Portugal, Qatar Air, Emirates, KLM, TCV (Cape Verde Airlines), and Mistral (BOS).

My worst are TAM, Iberian, Air France.  All three are horrible and just about tied in their lack of ability to speak english.  TAM also has the added problem of not knowing how to fly...
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: phil-s on May 26, 2011, 11:03:14 PM
I'd add China Eastern and Kolean Air, LOT, Dynasty, to those other badboy lists. and,yes,  the French are notorious for taking  prde in the excerable accents while attemtping to spek English.
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: fredpnt on June 01, 2011, 06:26:09 PM
I'd add China Eastern and Kolean Air, LOT, Dynasty, to those other badboy lists. and,yes,  the French are notorious for taking  prde in the excerable accents while attemtping to spek English.

Not all of'em buddy!

I am French, and I can tell you there is NO WAY you could tell I am...  :-D
Once I even made fun of my fellow Air France pilots departing from LAX while I was on the standard departure procedure from Santa Monica over SoCal Departure.
Even the SoCal dude laughed with me.

Too bad, I looked for the recording, but unfortunately, no feed.....

Anyway... I agree.... Most of us, french bastards, are horrible when it comes to speak english....

 :lol:



Hmmmmmmm Say again after good morning??!!!  :evil:
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: glencar on June 02, 2011, 06:17:44 PM
I work a ton of Air France flights and they're all quite professional and I've had no language problems. Korean Air used to have trouble but they're much better.
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: Clipper1145 on June 04, 2011, 03:56:11 PM
wer is the link :-o
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: athaker on June 08, 2011, 09:35:50 PM
Here's the clip for this thread someone posted on YouTube... man I loved listening to this controller at Kennedy.  Definitely took care of business.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOc6MM2jsTE
Title: Re: Busy night at JFK
Post by: joeyb747 on June 09, 2011, 07:55:00 PM
Here's the clip for this thread, posted on YouTube... man I loved listening to this controller at Kennedy.  Definitely took care of business.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOc6MM2jsTE

Prime example of why I LOVE listening to KJFK! Outstanding clip!