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Author Topic: Busy night at JFK  (Read 102965 times)

Offline PHL Approach

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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2006, 08:35:32 AM »
Quote from: AmericaWestCMH
Is this the same controller that was on the TLC program about ATC that showed LGA, EWR, and JFK?


Nope

Offline taf158

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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2006, 05:46:19 PM »
I agree, this guy is the best JFK controller. He doesn't take any s$i% from the pilots, and moves everyone around the best he can. I remember a few years ago hearing him get extremely mad a UAL pilot, because she was not reading the hold short clnc, and eventually had to hand the radio over to the PNF. Great clip, thanks for sharing!

Offline nitroboie

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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2006, 07:00:28 PM »
A similar situation happened again tonight, except this time even he gets confused at one point . Here's the clip. :P

Offline davolijj

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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2006, 09:05:07 PM »
Quote from: nitroboie
A similar situation happened again tonight, except this time even he gets confused at one point . Here's the clip. :P


My God...that is freakin' halarious.  I think they call the the New York treatment.  Welcome to the USA. :lol:

Offline knish1231

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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2006, 09:29:40 AM »
I would imagine that it could be quite difficult understanding the commands when english is not your first language.  These two examples are caused, in my opinion, by the pilot trying to be hasty and fast and not trully listening to the commands of the ATC.  

I wonder what kind of prep these pilots go thru before arrival to JFK, cause they know they will have to taxi and follow commands in english?

Offline spallanzani

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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2006, 06:25:43 PM »
Quote from: knish1231
I would imagine that it could be quite difficult understanding the commands when english is not your first language.


Depends a lot on where you come from. In some places, even if first language is not english, they have no problem understanding at all (like in Quebec). I would say foreign companies should really train their pilots to US phraseology much more then what they actually do (if ever done?).

Offline n57flyguy

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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2006, 11:51:58 AM »
Thats just funny thanks for those clips.

Offline Greeney

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« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2006, 04:25:01 PM »
I love NY.

Offline webdenis12

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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2006, 01:31:04 PM »
that Iberian pilot really screw things up. I was laughing so hard at talk between ATC and him  :P  :P

HOLD   SHORT    ON  4L    lol :P

Offline KSYR-pjr

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« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2006, 09:08:07 AM »
I tell you what:  The ground controller, after giving the Iberian pilot a very hard time for not repeating "Hold Short," made a mistake by not requiring the  "Hold Short" readback from the American Airlines pilot at the very end of the audio clip.

"Left Yankee, Right 3-1 Right, short  of 4 L," was the AA pilot's readback, which is procedurally incorrect.  The controller MUST hear "HOLD short" rwy XX and the controller let it go.

Offline spallanzani

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« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2006, 09:45:35 AM »
Well.. I hear a lot of "short of", which is a short way of saying "hold short of". It's probably not the right way (officially) to say it, but we hear it quite often...

The controller was on the Iberian probably because his answers weren't clear at all. Moreover, he told the pilot he wasn't able to understand what he was saying.. things like "....hold..." are not very clear. For the second file (8081 heavy), readbacks weren't good at all:

"-Tam 8081 right Hotel, left 04L, hold short of Golf
-Right on Hotel and hold short of Golf"

That's incomplete, especially when a runway is used for taxi.

Offline KSYR-pjr

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« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2006, 09:59:39 AM »
Quote from: spallanzani
Well.. I hear a lot of "short of", which is a short way of saying "hold short of". It's probably not the right way (officially) to say it, but we hear it quite often...


There is no short way of communicating "Hold Short," at least in US aviation. If the controller instructs an aircraft to hold short, the pilot MUST specifically read back "Hold Short."    If the pilot does not read this back exactly, the controller is obligated to correct it.

This was a requirement put in place several years ago as part of the FAA's crackdown on runway incursions.

Offline mkreilein

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« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2006, 12:32:09 AM »
Quote from: KSYR-pjr
I tell you what:  The ground controller, after giving the Iberian pilot a very hard time for not repeating "Hold Short," made a mistake by not requiring the  "Hold Short" readback from the American Airlines pilot at the very end of the audio clip.

"Left Yankee, Right 3-1 Right, short  of 4 L," was the AA pilot's readback, which is procedurally incorrect.  The controller MUST hear "HOLD short" rwy XX and the controller let it go.


Actually, it's not incorrect at all.

ONLY ATC is required to use proper phraseology.  The pilot IS required to readback the instruction, but the definition of "readback" for a pilot is a LOT looser than the definition for how ATC instructs a plane.

If you look at Order 7110.65P Chapter 3, Section 7, there's never any example of what the readback is supposed to sound like.

ATC has to give the standard "Callsign, Kennedy Tower, wind XXX at XX, Rwy 22L, cleared to land".  They HAVE to give their name on initial contact, they HAVE to make "cleared to land" the last thing they say.  However, it's perfectly OK for the PILOT to say "clear to land 22L".

The demand of exact phraseology is on ATC.  There are sections saying how you should tell an A/C to give a readback, but nothing about what has to be contained in it.

At least that I could find that is.

Offline KSYR-pjr

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« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2006, 08:19:11 AM »
Quote from: mkreilein
Actually, it's not incorrect at all.


Are you a pilot or active (non-VATSIM) controller?

I am a very active general aviation pilot just a few hours shy of the 1,000 hour mark obtained in the last four years.  My Bonanza is based at a class C airport and I have flown many times into Boston Logan airport, as well as the busiest class Ds of the northeast US (Teterboro and Bedford/Hanscom).   I have also flown my Bonanza across the US, from NY to California and back through Denver International.  The purpose of stating all this is merely to establish my credibility.

With regards to US ATC communications, I can attest to the fact that controllers absolutely must hear a readback of "hold short" (both words) if they issue a hold short command.   Where this is in their controller's handbook, I couldn't say.  However, I have heard on more occasions than I can count on my fingers a pilot not including "HOLD short" in their readback andthe controller immediately and tersely responding, "Sir, I must* hear the words HOLD SHORT," followed by a sheepish, "Hold short runway XX, Cessna XXX."  

Apparently, this also applies to "Position and Hold" as well.  One time last year at Boston Logan I was instructed to position and hold.   In an attempt to keep radio chatter down to the bare minimum, I opted to respond "WILCO, Bonanza XXX" and the controller did the same thing. "Sir, please read back the entire instruction, including the word HOLD."

Offline n57flyguy

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« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2006, 10:08:50 AM »
Quote from: KSYR-pjr
Quote from: mkreilein
Actually, it's not incorrect at all.


Are you a pilot or active (non-VATSIM) controller?

I am a very active general aviation pilot just a few hours shy of the 1,000 hour mark obtained in the last four years.  My Bonanza is based at a class C airport and I have flown many times into Boston Logan airport, as well as the busiest class Ds of the northeast US (Teterboro and Bedford/Hanscom).   I have also flown my Bonanza across the US, from NY to California and back through Denver International.  The purpose of stating all this is merely to establish my credibility.

With regards to US ATC communications, I can attest to the fact that controllers absolutely must hear a readback of "hold short" (both words) if they issue a hold short command.   Where this is in their controller's handbook, I couldn't say.  However, I have heard on more occasions than I can count on my fingers a pilot not including "HOLD short" in their readback andthe controller immediately and tersely responding, "Sir, I must* hear the words HOLD SHORT," followed by a sheepish, "Hold short runway XX, Cessna XXX."  

Apparently, this also applies to "Position and Hold" as well.  One time last year at Boston Logan I was instructed to position and hold.   In an attempt to keep radio chatter down to the bare minimum, I opted to respond "WILCO, Bonanza XXX" and the controller did the same thing. "Sir, please read back the entire instruction, including the word HOLD."


Agreed, sounds right to me, its practical runway and airport safety to readback Poistion and Hold to the controller when on a taxi way or runway. As one at any towered airport when a pilot taxis to the runway, youll always hear the controller : United XXX, taxi to runway 27L, position and hold. Pilot: Taxi runway 27L position and hold. Common safety rules that could make all the difference sometimes.

Offline Tomato

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« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2006, 10:25:29 AM »
On a slight different note - how much does it matter if the pilot reads back their callsign before the instruction, and at that - an abbreviated in-flight instruction?

eg. November 123, 3 thousand.
-instead of-
eg. Climb to 3 thousand, November 123.

...?

Offline w0x0f

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« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2006, 10:42:19 AM »
This explains it quite clearly.  Don Brown is required reading for all pilots.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182636-1.html

w0x0f

Offline KSYR-pjr

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« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2006, 11:01:54 AM »
Quote from: w0x0f
Don Brown is required reading for all pilots.


Absolutely!  My favorite monthly column.  I am very critical of my communication skills (always listen to the LiveATC archives) and have really tightened this up since I began reading his columns a few years ago.

Reading aviation accident analyses in the magazine NTSB Reporter or the various columns in Flying, Aviation Safety, and Plane and Pilot also reinforces proper communication (when to say it) and phraseology (what to say) skills.  

The accident that sticks with me and demonstrates poor communication is an accident where a C150 was cleared for takeoff and a second C172 announced ready, but failed to include his location.  This C172 was actually at a taxiway intersection some 1,000 feet further down the runway.  The tower controller, thinking he was the C172 he saw immediately behind the C150 taking the runway, gave him a position and hold instruction.  

The C172 taxied onto the runway and right into the path of the rolling C150.  All aboard both aircraft were killed as a result of the collision.

Offline dave

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« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2006, 11:34:21 AM »
You won't find the requirement to read back HOLD SHORT instructions in the 7110.65.  It is a local requirement imposed at almost every busy airport, and is not optional, as Peter points out.  In fact, listen to the ATIS recording at almost every busy airport, and you will hear the words:

"Read back all hold short instructions."

This is required of all pilots, and is a local requirement.  The local requirements override everything, regardless of whether you don't find something in a regulatory publication or not.

And I am not sure whether it is in the FAR's or not....no time to look it up right now.

Offline KSYR-pjr

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« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2006, 11:44:07 AM »
Quote from: Tomato
On a slight different note - how much does it matter if the pilot reads back their callsign before the instruction, and at that - an abbreviated in-flight instruction?


Since the callsign of the aircraft is most likely second nature, many pilots will read-back the instruction first, then add their callsign.  This is actually an effective memory aid for those pilots, like myself, who are able to remember most instructions (clearances and taxi instructions excluded) without writing them down.

Hear the numbers, repeat the numbers first (which plants the numbers in the short term memory - the same memory trick works when meeting someone new and hearing their name), then add the callsign after the instruction.

Oh, and the callsign is never abbreviated by the pilot without the controller first abbreviating it.  Many pilots make this mistake.

Offline KSYR-pjr

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« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2006, 11:52:14 AM »
Quote from: Tomato
... an abbreviated in-flight instruction?

eg. November 123, 3 thousand.
-instead of-
eg. Climb to 3 thousand, November 123....?


I missed your second question in my previous reply.   Believe it or not, neither reply in your example is technically correct.  

When flying IFR in the US, the correct readback for an altitude change instruction is actually:

"Leaving one thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123,"   or  "One thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123."

The first part of the readback allows the controller (I believe - one of the controllers here would need to verify)  to quickly verify the altitude on his scope (what is really the altitude from the aircraft's mode C transponder corrected to the local barometric pressure) matches what the pilot is seeing on his altimeter.

To demonstrate that this phraseology is correct, I have very often heard an incorrect, or abbreviated reply met with an immediate, "Say altitide leaving" by the controller.  In busy airspace, this additional exchange ties up the frequency that much more.

Offline mkreilein

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« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2006, 12:59:08 PM »
Quote from: KSYR-pjr
Quote from: mkreilein
Actually, it's not incorrect at all.


Are you a pilot or active (non-VATSIM) controller?

I am a very active general aviation pilot just a few hours shy of the 1,000 hour mark obtained in the last four years.  My Bonanza is based at a class C airport and I have flown many times into Boston Logan airport, as well as the busiest class Ds of the northeast US (Teterboro and Bedford/Hanscom).   I have also flown my Bonanza across the US, from NY to California and back through Denver International.  The purpose of stating all this is merely to establish my credibility.

With regards to US ATC communications, I can attest to the fact that controllers absolutely must hear a readback of "hold short" (both words) if they issue a hold short command.   Where this is in their controller's handbook, I couldn't say.  However, I have heard on more occasions than I can count on my fingers a pilot not including "HOLD short" in their readback andthe controller immediately and tersely responding, "Sir, I must* hear the words HOLD SHORT," followed by a sheepish, "Hold short runway XX, Cessna XXX."  

Apparently, this also applies to "Position and Hold" as well.  One time last year at Boston Logan I was instructed to position and hold.   In an attempt to keep radio chatter down to the bare minimum, I opted to respond "WILCO, Bonanza XXX" and the controller did the same thing. "Sir, please read back the entire instruction, including the word HOLD."


Nah, just an enthusiast.  I plan on getting some flying time in there as soon as I get the $ for it as soon as I get a real job for that.

That's a lot of "as soon as-es", but you gotta have a goal right.

Just read stuff on my own time, try to keep up with things, listen to ATC on here, and just trying to keep straight the many things I hear from here and there.

I hadn't heard of that.  Always had heard (and it seems from the "quality" of some of the "readbacks" you hear) that the proper phraseology was on the ATC side less than the pilot side.

Offline ian

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« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2006, 01:37:47 PM »
Quote from: KSYR-pjr
Quote from: Tomato
... an abbreviated in-flight instruction?

eg. November 123, 3 thousand.
-instead of-
eg. Climb to 3 thousand, November 123....?


I missed your second question in my previous reply.   Believe it or not, neither reply in your example is technically correct.  

When flying IFR in the US, the correct readback for an altitude change instruction is actually:

"Leaving one thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123,"   or  "One thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123."

The first part of the readback allows the controller (I believe - one of the controllers here would need to verify)  to quickly verify the altitude on his scope (what is really the altitude from the aircraft's mode C transponder corrected to the local barometric pressure) matches what the pilot is seeing on his altimeter.

To demonstrate that this phraseology is correct, I have very often heard an incorrect, or abbreviated reply met with an immediate, "Say altitide leaving" by the controller.  In busy airspace, this additional exchange ties up the frequency that much more.


Actually, "out of 5 for 3, cessna xxx" will suffice...

Offline w0x0f

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« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2006, 02:32:40 PM »
Quote from: dave
You won't find the requirement to read back HOLD SHORT instructions in the 7110.65.    It is a local requirement

Actually it is required of the controller to receive it in the .65.  Par 3-7-2 d

This is a national requirement, not just local.  Nothing in the .65 is regulatory for pilots.


http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0307.html#3-7-2

d. Request a read back of runway hold short instructions when it is not received from the pilot/vehicle operator.



w0x0f

Offline davolijj

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« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2006, 02:48:51 PM »
It's also in the section governing ATIS content:


Section 9. Automatic Terminal Information
Service Procedures


2-9-3. CONTENT

j. A statement which advises the pilot to read back instructions to hold short of a runway. The air traffic manager may elect to remove this requirement 60 days after implementation provided that removing the statement from the ATIS does not result in increased requests from aircraft for read back of hold short instructions.