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Author Topic: ask a pilot/controller  (Read 41596 times)

Offline JBnut

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ask a pilot/controller
« on: November 26, 2007, 07:34:35 PM »
I'm an Air Traffic Controller got a question for an IFR rated pilot... when we give a traffic call and you observe traffic on TCAS, does that constitute traffic in sight? Sometimes when I give traffic calls the pilot says "roger, got him on TCAS"  but I don't think they realize that until they say the magic words "in sight"  I have to keep giving updates on traffic. Just wondering..

Thanx
    JB



Offline fholbert

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 07:37:05 PM »
I clearly understand that. I've wondered why someone hasn't put that in the AIM

Frank Holbert
http://160knots.com
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 07:39:16 PM by fholbert »

Offline tyketto

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 07:42:11 PM »
JB, you would be absolutely correct here. Take for example if you were working Final Approach for a given airport, and you are sequencing someone for a visual approach. You give the traffic call, and they say "We got him on TCAS". You wouldn't be able to tell your pilot to follow the traffic and clear him for the approach, because they don't have visual contact on the traffic.

So yes, if you don't hear 'in sight', you're to keep giving them the updates on it, and if the other traffic is under your control, point out the traffic to them too..

BL.

Offline JBnut

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 07:51:48 PM »
You must be a ATCer as well BL? preshunate it!! You don't happen to know a REF for it do you?  You know us ATCer's always challenging each other. Just want to prove to fellow troller.  if not no worries thax!!


JB

Offline cessna157

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 08:25:34 PM »
JB, just curious here.  What type of controller are you?  ARTCC?  TRACON?

Reason I ask is some center controllers will issue traffic advisories to us up at FL300 for traffic that is +/-1000 feet, while some don't.  I understand that this is not a required traffic advisory at all, and that it is much more of a courtesy call.  Just wondering if it is done workload permitting basis, controller's prerogative, etc....

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 08:33:16 PM »
I'm an Air Traffic Controller got a question for an IFR rated pilot... when we give a traffic call and you observe traffic on TCAS, does that constitute traffic in sight?

What gets me even more is when one of my GA brethren responds with that answer and the device he/she is using is most likely a Mode S transponder with TIS (uplinked traffic from certain radar sites) or one of those really cheap portable devices, not a top dollar TCAS unit. 

My Bonanza is equipped with the Mode-S/TIS unit and I have seen cases where the traffic on the display lagged real-time.  I have also seen where the two matched perfectly but I still would never claim "I have him on TCAS."

So there's my answer, now a question to you:  When I reply 'Negative Traffic' does it help you to know when I am IMC as well?  Or is this information irrelevant?  I do admit to including that fact and yes, I am perfectly aware that you are in a dark, windowless room and have no clue where IMC begins and ends, but it seems relevant to me.

Or how about this somewhat jovial question:  Why is it when I call for my clearance by stating, "BlahBlah clearance, Bonanza XXX, IFR to Buffalo with information Bravo," do controllers seem to immediately respond with, "Do you have the latest information Bravo?"   Um.... Okay.  It seems to happen quite regularly.





Offline tyketto

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 09:05:10 PM »
You must be a ATCer as well BL? preshunate it!! You don't happen to know a REF for it do you?  You know us ATCer's always challenging each other. Just want to prove to fellow troller.  if not no worries thax!!


JB

In a sense, yes. :)

Here's your reference. 7110.65R, section 7-4-3:
Quote
7-4-3. CLEARANCE FOR VISUAL APPROACH

ARTCCs and approach controls may clear aircraft for visual approaches using the following procedures:

a. Controllers may initiate, or pilots may request, a visual approach even when an aircraft is being vectored for an instrument approach and the pilot subsequently reports:

1. The airport or the runway in sight at airports with operating control towers.

2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.

b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available.

c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:

1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or

2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or

NOTE-
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.

3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual separation is provided.

d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the airplane manufacturer and model.

Also, reference 7-2-1, Visual Separation. That also mandates that you hear a response in the affirmative for pointing out traffic. Saying "I have him on TCAS" is not visually in the affirmative.

BL.

Offline flyflorida2001

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2007, 09:09:53 PM »
I'm an Air Traffic Controller got a question for an IFR rated pilot... when we give a traffic call and you observe traffic on TCAS, does that constitute traffic in sight? Sometimes when I give traffic calls the pilot says "roger, got him on TCAS"  but I don't think they realize that until they say the magic words "in sight"  I have to keep giving updates on traffic. Just wondering..

Thanx
    JB

I'm a 121 regional FO, here's my take.  If I have a visual on the traffic, I will call it as such.  If I don't have him visually, but I do have him on the TCAS, I normally say just that to let you (ATC) know that while I don't have a visual, I do know where he is and am keeping an eye on the situation/am looking for him out the window.  The modern TCAS is pretty good at giving you an idea of where he is so that you can narrow your scan down to a very small area, thus allowing you to vpot the traffic much quicker.  Not sure if this is the answer you are looking for or not...but there you have it.

Offline JBnut

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2007, 09:14:21 PM »
N157 I'm currently a Tower controller but have spent a little time in a TRACON  and ARTCC.  as for your traffic call question it's a little of all the above.  we give it workload permitting/ controller perogitive ect... it all depends on the situation.  When we are staring at the radar our plans for what we want to do constantly change do to a # of variables that can come up.  For instance if I'm talking to you at FL300 and the Aircraft below you at FL290 both obviously radar identified and my plan is to desend you through his altitude I "personally" want to make sure you see him before you desend, see him and think I didn't know what I was doing.  That's just my way of thinking (perogitive) We are taught to verbally paint you a picture so you know whats going on around you.

Long story short just depends on the controller working.. Hope that helps you in your understanding behind the scenes......Safe flight

Offline RV1

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2007, 09:48:27 PM »
In joking, and off frequency, we will say "maintain TCAS seperation with", but having an a'c on TCAS does nothing for us. Until you actually have the aircraft in sight and have been told to maintain visual seperation with, we will use another form of seperation. Sorry, but having him on TCAS aint worth squat.
   As for controller passing tfc that is 1000' above or below and will converge or be very close, we are required to. It is normally a preventive measure so that when you actually do look out the window, see this other airplane that 'looks' like he's at the same altitude, and aimed at you, you aren't a little shocked because you've already been informed of the tfc.
  Yes, if you are IMC, and therefore won't be able to get an a'c visually, let us know. As you are aware, we don't have windows and therefore can't tell where you are in relation to any clouds.

Offline zmeatc

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2007, 10:20:11 PM »
JB, just curious here.  What type of controller are you?  ARTCC?  TRACON?

Reason I ask is some center controllers will issue traffic advisories to us up at FL300 for traffic that is +/-1000 feet, while some don't.  I understand that this is not a required traffic advisory at all, and that it is much more of a courtesy call.  Just wondering if it is done workload permitting basis, controller's prerogative, etc....

The way I've been told is if the two targets are converging and =+/- 1000 feet must give a call for traffic. Any other scenario is at controller discretion. If pilot says "traffic not in sight/have traffic on TCAS" You tell the aircraft "traffic no longer a factor." This is just how my training team wants me to do it.

Offline JBnut

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2007, 10:37:28 PM »
KSYR- to your question ref IMC in sight...  I know it sounds stupid but we have regs (thanks to BL) that say we must continue to give you the traffic calls until you say in sight.  I know it's stupid if the weather is IMC but it's pretty much the same as; I don't know if you ever heard a tower controller say "check wheels down" to a cessna with fixed gear or worse even a skid mounted heli..  We always get laughed at.  Per the reg we a required to give it.

as for the CD question We are unfortunatly creatures of habit.  we have a bunch of flight progress strips with a lot of different call signs.  I know what happens when I've worked is you call up Blah blah clearance Bonanza XXX as soon as you say that I'm looking through my whole lot of strips and blocking out everything else you say.  So to cover my butt I have to confirm you have the Numbers. it pretty much becomes Phraseology. "Bonanza XXX verify you have information (a-z) and advise ready to copy clearance"  

Offline davolijj

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 10:57:43 PM »
 For instance if I'm talking to you at FL300 and the Aircraft below you at FL290 both obviously radar identified and my plan is to desend you through his altitude I "personally" want to make sure you see him before you desend, see him and think I didn't know what I was doing.

If you take him through the traffic's altitude at any less than five miles without a passing report procedure, than you don't know what you're doing.  Obviously you can't use visual at those altitudes and at five miles minimum he probably won't see him.

Quote from: zmeatc
The way I've been told is if the two targets are converging and =+/- 1000 feet must give a call for traffic. Any other scenario is at controller discretion. If pilot says "traffic not in sight/have traffic on TCAS" You tell the aircraft "traffic no longer a factor." This is just how my training team wants me to do it.

7110.65   5-1-8 Merging Target Procedures
b. Issue traffic information to those aircraft listed in subpara a whose targets appear likely to merge unless the aircraft are separated by more than the appropriate vertical separation minima.

7110.65  2-1-21 Traffic Advisories
8. Inform the pilot of the following when traffic you have issued is not reported in sight:

(a) The traffic is no factor.

(b) The traffic is no longer depicted on radar.

PHRASEOLOGY-
TRAFFIC NO FACTOR/NO LONGER OBSERVED

I think there is a little misunderstanding about this prargraph.  Just because the aircraft reports "traffic not in sight" does not mean you tell him traffic no factor.  As long as it IS a factor you continue to issue traffic advisories until it is no longer a factor, then inform the aircraft that traffic is no longer a factor.

As for PJ's question about Clearance Delivery...you've been flying out of SYR too much.  You probably woke the clearance guy up and he didn't hear the part about you having Bravo.

Offline JBnut

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2007, 11:05:20 PM »
Damn dave,  You know you can't tell another controller he doesn't know what he's doing.....lol I guess I should of paid attention to what I'm saying. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 11:08:01 PM by JBnut »

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 07:48:41 AM »
As for PJ's question about Clearance Delivery...you've been flying out of SYR too much.  You probably woke the clearance guy up and he didn't hear the part about you having Bravo.

Ouch!  :)    Is that why one of the approach controllers yesterday thanked a GA pilot for practicing a few instrument approaches and included, "We need the approaches here?"

Actually, IFR Magazine often includes that particular ATIS communications gaffe in their articles about ATC (usually as a joke).

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 07:55:15 AM »
KSYR- to your question ref IMC in sight...  I know it sounds stupid but we have regs (thanks to BL) that say we must continue to give you the traffic calls until you say in sight. 

I figured that was the case since there are really only two answers to your traffic call - "negative traffic" and "in sight." I will admit that I always have to fight to hold back the third common non-answer, which is "looking," since for some reason I still think answering "negative traffic" implies wrongly that after looking I stopped and returned to my other duties.  :)

If nothing else including "in IMC" gives my passengers piece of mind (as it starts the discussion).  To the uninitiated passenger, traffic calls while in IMC tend to raise their anxiety levels a bit more.   
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 08:51:36 AM by KSYR-pjr »

Offline w0x0f

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 12:00:30 PM »
For a pilot to say that he has the traffic on TCAS is a waste of time for the controller.  The only responses to a traffic call should be like PJ said, either "in sight," or "negative traffic." 

I'm a 121 regional FO, here's my take.  If I have a visual on the traffic, I will call it as such.  If I don't have him visually, but I do have him on the TCAS, I normally say just that to let you (ATC) know that while I don't have a visual, I do know where he is and am keeping an eye on the situation/am looking for him out the window. 

I know that you know where he is because I know that you have TCAS and I just told you where the traffic was.  I appreciate your reassurance in this call, but frankly, it's not necessary and serves no purpose.

If nothing else including "in IMC" gives my passengers piece of mind (as it starts the discussion).  To the uninitiated passenger, traffic calls while in IMC tend to raise their anxiety levels a bit more.  

I appreciate the peace of mind of your passengers too, that's why I try to keep them away from the other traffic.  But as JD's merging target reference states, I am required to give you the traffic call regardless of your flight conditions.  So if you tell me that you are IMC, it is really unnecessary.  I understand why you would say this.  It seems quite obvious to you that you can't see past the front of your nose, but what happens when you break into an open area, do you tell me that you are VMC?  Either way it doesn't matter.  I am required to give you the traffic call.

I am also a pilot and understand why someone without an ATC background would say "I have him on TCAS," or "we're IMC."  Hopefully this discussion helps other pilots understand some of the requirements of ATC.   

w0x0f
 

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2007, 12:16:55 PM »
So if you tell me that you are IMC, it is really unnecessary.

Fine, I'll drop it from my communication repertoire, but if someday ATC makes a snide comment like "How come you cannot see the traffic that is one mile at your twelve o'clock and 1,000 feet below you converging?" when I am IMC the entire five traffic calls I will simply reply with, "w0x0f - ask him."   :)

Offline cessna157

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2007, 12:28:10 PM »
SYR, funny you should mention that.  Just last week I had a controller get snippy with me after we were just at the bases of IMC and I couldn't see traffic that we were to follow that was at our 1 o'clock and 2 miles.  He issued the traffic advisory, I replied that we were looking.  His reponse was "You can't see that big 737 just off your nose?"

Offline JBnut

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2007, 01:03:53 PM »
SYR, funny you should mention that.  Just last week I had a controller get snippy with me after we were just at the bases of IMC and I couldn't see traffic that we were to follow that was at our 1 o'clock and 2 miles.  He issued the traffic advisory, I replied that we were looking.  His reponse was "You can't see that big 737 just off your nose?"

hey sometimes we have "bad Airdays" and a (what we think is dumb) answer from a pilot puts us over the edge.  we are not all perfect.  Just don't tell any controllers I said that

Offline w0x0f

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2007, 02:55:03 PM »
Fine, I'll drop it from my communication repertoire, but if someday ATC makes a snide comment like "How come you cannot see the traffic that is one mile at your twelve o'clock and 1,000 feet below you converging?" when I am IMC the entire five traffic calls I will simply reply with, "w0x0f - ask him."   :)

I make one "merging target procedure" traffic call when it is required.  If you say "negative contact," my next transmission to you will be "traffic no factor," when appropriate.  I will not make multiple traffic calls, and certainly not 5 as you suggest, when applying this rule.  It is a waste of time.  I really don't care if you see the traffic in this example, the rules say that I have to tell you.  I made my comments in the earlier post based on the merging target procedure.

Now vectoring for a visual approach is a different traffic call.  I may make more than one traffic call when I am vectoring for a visual approach, but not usually.  I attempt to ascertain all pertinent weather information prior to vectoring for visual approaches, so unless conditions are changing rapidly, I will have a very good idea of when you are VMC.  I will vector the aircraft into a position so that when I call the traffic to follow they either see them or they are cleared for the advertised instrument approach on the next transmission.  I will only make multiple traffic calls in these circumstances when I am getting close on lateral separation.  I will still use vertical separation until the aircraft is in sight for the VA or vector them out if they do not see the traffic.  If a controller is attempting to vector you for a visual approach and he is calling traffic to follow and you are IMC then I would tell him and then give him an updated PIREP.

Don Brown used to write for AvWeb.  He does a great job explaining traffic calls and gets into the IMC and TCAS issues in this article called "Traffic Time."  You need to join up with AvWeb to view this.  It's free and highly recommended.

http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/186249-1.html

w0x0f       

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2007, 03:44:43 PM »
I really don't care if you see the traffic in this example, the rules say that I have to tell you.  I made my comments in the earlier post based on the merging target procedure.

In the highly likely case it was not apparent, I was joking - hence the smiley icon.  I sincerely appreciate your input, as having these kinds of dialogs only serves to make me a more professional, proficient, and ultimately a safer pilot.


Don Brown used to write for AvWeb.  He does a great job explaining traffic calls and gets into the IMC and TCAS issues in this article called "Traffic Time."  You need to join up with AvWeb to view this.  It's free and highly recommended.   

I used to read Don's articles on Avweb religiously but I lost touch after he retired from ATC and took a break from writing them.

Offline Greg01

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2007, 03:49:19 PM »
Spawning another question...for the guys working clearance: is it a waste of your time to hear..."IFR to Boston..."? I've found myself sometimes saying it, and other times just saying, "Clearance, Nxxxxx, Boston with Papa."

I've always said, "looking" when traffic is called because, like Peter said, I'm afraid the controller will think I've gone back to my flight duties rather than continuing to look for the traffic.

Greg

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2007, 05:41:43 PM »
Spawning another question...for the guys working clearance: is it a waste of your time to hear..."IFR to Boston..."? I've found myself sometimes saying it, and other times just saying, "Clearance, Nxxxxx, Boston with Papa."

My take is that the "IFR" part tips off the controller to look for the strip/clearance.  In your example, it seems possible to me that there could be momentary confusion while the controller ascertains whether you are VFR or IFR.  Additionally, I cannot image that the words "IFR to" tie up the frequency any more than the controller asking for confirmation of the ATIS when you already stated you had it.  :)

Offline Greg01

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Re: ask a pilot/controller
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2007, 06:00:29 PM »
That's a fair point, Peter. However, when I worked up in the local tower/TRACON, i was allowed to "help" out in the CD position with a trainer (which was pretty cool). Very rarely did I have an airliner say, "Clearance, EGF656 IFR to ORD with papa." Usually it was something like, "EGF656, O'Hare, uh...papa."

Anytime I heard someone call clearance, I had an idea right off the bat as to whether they were IFR or VFR mainly because you have to pull the strips out of the printer and put them in the strip holder. When doing that, one usually gets a look at who is on the strip. And yes, I did have quite a few GA guys in the lineup.

I guess I'm directing this to the guys who work the busy airports (not necessarily JFK, but those where you might find GA). Do you guys know that most are going to be operating IFR and can do without the "IFR to..." or "clearance to..."?

Thanks,