Author Topic: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK  (Read 18218 times)

Offline Аэрофлот Jr.

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ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« on: February 26, 2009, 04:23:14 PM »
Air Shuttle 7256 CRJ 200 had to return to the field after the departure because of opened door indication.

Flight was to KIAD.

Enjoy . 


sincerely, Rae

Offline cessna157

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2009, 08:24:06 PM »
Hmm, very nice.  I wonder why they didn't silence the master warning.  You can hear it saying "DOOR DOOR DOOR DOOR DOOR DOOR".  They can just shut that up by pushing the master warning light.  Unless it was a DCU problem and not a door problem
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Offline Аэрофлот Jr.

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2009, 08:46:22 PM »
Hmm, very nice.  I wonder why they didn't silence the master warning.  You can hear it saying "DOOR DOOR DOOR DOOR DOOR DOOR".  They can just shut that up by pushing the master warning light.  Unless it was a DCU problem and not a door problem

I didn't know the sound of DOOR DOOR thing untill now . good catch .
sincerely, Rae

Offline joeyb747

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2009, 09:18:54 PM »
I hear both pilots taking turns on the radio. I thought normal procedure in an emergency situation would be for the pilot not flying to work the radio. Am I incorrect on that? One of the pilots has almost what sounds like an asian accent.

Great post! I like it when all the good stuff is edited together! :-D
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Offline Аэрофлот Jr.

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2009, 09:30:45 PM »

Great post! I like it when all the good stuff is edited together! :-D

Thank you (:
sincerely, Rae

Offline Switch Monkey

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2009, 10:25:59 PM »
I hear both pilots taking turns on the radio. I thought normal procedure in an emergency situation would be for the pilot not flying to work the radio. Am I incorrect on that? One of the pilots has almost what sounds like an asian accent.

Great post! I like it when all the good stuff is edited together! :-D

When the PIC is the flying pilot it is sometimes quicker to answer ATC while flying than tell the non flying, FO, what to say.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2009, 07:26:40 PM »
That makes sense. Save time too! Thanks Switch Monkey!  :-)
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Offline snipper_cr

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2009, 07:33:23 PM »
15 Souls onboard? I bet that was a money making flight for them...

Couldn't accept a VOR/DME approach? Tsk tsk... (Kidding!)
The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2009, 07:37:52 PM »
Yea i heard that too. "Don't have time to set it up" I think is how he put it.
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Offline Flyingnut

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2009, 09:09:07 PM »
Yea i heard that too. "Don't have time to set it up" I think is how he put it.

Times were simpler when all you had to do is tune the VOR and tune the OBS to the radial. 

Reminds me of when I hear a crew of a regional jet say that they cannot accept an intersection departure from an intersection that is 500-1000 feet from where there were planning on departing ( departure end ) on a 10,000 foot runway because they don't have the "numbers" for that intersection.  You still have 9000-9500 feet usable.  :?
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Offline cessna157

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2009, 09:43:21 PM »
You've just described 2 different things.  To shoot an approach, per company procedures, the entire approach must be tuned and briefed.  In this case, there was very little time to do so.

Pertaining to the intersection departures:  Yes, the crew knows they've got plenty of runway to takeoff.  you could takeoff and land in that distance.  It is entirely a legality issue.  Part 121 operations must have runway information to depart under the conditions.  If the crew is not provide with performance data for a 14500' intersection on a 15000' runway, they cannot use it.
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Offline joeyb747

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2009, 08:49:43 AM »
Hey cessna 157. I got a question for you. In this situation, the weather was such that they could shoot the visual approach. He said he didn't have time to set up the VOR DME approach. What would be the procedure in IFR flight conditions? Low visibility, mist, fog, rain, where they couldn't shoot the visual.  Or worse situations (engine failure, fire, and so on) when time really becomes a factor.
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Offline cessna157

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2009, 09:01:53 AM »
All that would need to happen would be to ask for delay vectors.  ATC could give a quick box vector to give the crew time to set up for the approach.  An ILS briefing and preparation could be done in just a minute or two.  A non-precision approach could be done in just a little longer, depending on the airline's descent profile procedures and the crew's familiarity with the approach.
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Offline joeyb747

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2009, 08:42:10 PM »
Ok. Thanks for the info cessna157. I'm curious why he said he didn't have time to set it up.   
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KJET100

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2009, 09:19:32 PM »
I'm curious why he said he didn't have time to set it up.   
Ever tried to VOR/DME land a Regional?

Offline joeyb747

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2009, 09:57:23 PM »
KJET100:

No sir, I am not a pilot. I'm a wrench!  :-D I guess my point is he said he didn't have "time" to set up the approach. What if weather conditions were such that an instrument approach would be required? Is a VOR/DME a more complex approach then a standard ILS?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 07:17:57 PM by joeyb747 »
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Offline joeyb747

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2009, 07:26:19 PM »
I am curious about what would happen in that situation in poor weather conditions. If someone out there could enlighten me, that would be great! I would suppose in IMC conditions, you would use the ILS, since, if I'm correct here, a VOR/DME only tells you distance from the field. Is that correct?
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KJET100

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2009, 06:45:10 AM »
I realized how smarmy I sounded and man, i swear its never my intention. I think the keyboard has this filter that makes me sound like a smart alleck everytime i open my chops. ;)

BTW, please dont call me sir, it makes me blush and makes me feel old. I'm only 27 ;) I have never made a VOR/DME approach in a regional outside of a simulator.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2009, 05:54:05 PM »
I realized how smarmy I sounded and man, i swear its never my intention. I think the keyboard has this filter that makes me sound like a smart alleck everytime i open my chops. ;)

BTW, please dont call me sir, it makes me blush and makes me feel old. I'm only 27 ;) I have never made a VOR/DME approach in a regional outside of a simulator.

No worries mate!

« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 06:06:05 PM by joeyb747 »
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Offline joeyb747

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2009, 07:26:17 PM »
And let me rephrase my above question. The pilot said he didn't have time to set up the approach and opted for the visual. Weather conditions allowed him to take that option. What would happen in a situation where the didn't have time to set up for the approach, but weather conditions required an instrument approach? If the airplane needed to land NOW(total thrust loss, electrical failure, nav eqiup failure), can the tower talk the airplane down? Radar, or something along those lines? I think they have that capability, but I'm not sure...
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Offline cessna157

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2009, 08:21:24 PM »
Well, you're starting to get into the pilotage of the emergency there. It depends on the emergency.  If it requires an immediate landing (smoke/fire in the cabin, aircraft uncontrollable) then the controller can spout off the ILS freq and the pilot can tune it real fast and do a quick and dirty approach.  A total electrical failure is highly unlikely (if my count is correct, and depending on the problem, that would be a 5 or 6 way failure in the CRJ) due to the number of redundancies and backups available.  Loss of thrust rules out any type of instrument approach.  In a dire emergency, I guess ATC might be able to do an improvised ASR approach, but I'm not sure on the legalities of that.  If you have radio communication, then you most likely have a navigation receiver working too.
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Offline joeyb747

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2009, 08:27:41 PM »
Great info cesna157. Thanks!

Yea, I didn't think about the comm radio working, and the nav radio not...pretty unlikley! All or none right??

Thanks again!

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Offline bill1229

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2009, 05:10:20 PM »
Hey, some questions for any CRJ drivers...

1.  Is this a luggage door or the main cabin door?  Wondering if there's a different alert.

2.  Why didn't he declare an emergency?  I realize it's his option, but with 15 on board, why not? 

3.  Finally, the discussion on the return set up is great... Can or shouldn't the flight computer be set up for an emergency return and also the destination?  Press a button and get that return?  Or can only the final destination be set up? 

Great audio, and he did great flying the plane and not letting it be a distraction.  PIC sounds like it's another day at the office.  Thanks,


Offline cessna157

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2009, 08:01:29 PM »
1.  Is this a luggage door or the main cabin door?  Wondering if there's a different alert.

This is the main passenger door.  The cargo door (and every other door on the airplane) is a plug-type door, and therefore cannot open while the aircraft is in the air.  The passenger door is not a plug, it is just held in place by many pins and cam-locks.  On the CRJ, the passenger door being open generates a red warning message, while every other door generates a yellow caution message.

2.  Why didn't he declare an emergency?  I realize it's his option, but with 15 on board, why not? 
Not sure.  Pilot's discretion.  Although the door indicated open, it obviously wasn't actually open (or else this would be a completely different thread, and the ferry boats would have had another outing).  The crew knew this and just did a standard return to departure airport.  Most mechanical returns are not emergencies.  Many diversions are (since it is something to land right away for, rather than continuing).

3.  Finally, the discussion on the return set up is great... Can or shouldn't the flight computer be set up for an emergency return and also the destination?  Press a button and get that return?  Or can only the final destination be set up? 

The FMS has certain logic to its menu systems.  SIDs for the departure airport, STARs and approaches for the destination.  They certainly could have changed the destination airport in the FMS to KJFK and had the approaches available.  This would require just a couple steps of changing the destination, making KJFK the next waypoint (which would clear the original flight plan route), then selecting the approach the wanted.  But why go through all of that when you can just look out your left window and see the airport 5 miles away.  Automation is made to assist the pilot, but sometimes using less automation is easier.
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Offline joeyb747

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Re: ASH 7256 Emergency at KJFK
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2009, 08:09:05 PM »
Cessna157 hits it out of the park again!

I have to say cessna157, you always have the best info! You are an incredible asset to this site. Thanks for sharing your knowledge! Seeing the answer form the pilots view puts a whole new light on the subject every time!

Thanks again!  :-D
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