LiveATC Discussion Forums
Air Traffic Monitoring => Aviation Audio Clips => Topic started by: looneytunes on March 02, 2010, 11:35:50 PM
-
boy the media is having a field day with this one...lol
-
All I know is that the FAA is investigating the situation..... Kinda makes me think about the Aeroflot flight I believe that the captain let his kid take the controls and they crashed killing everyone... It was on Air Crash Investigation!
B
-
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/traffic/traffic_news/boy-talks-to-pilots-from-jfk-airport-tower-20100302
When this was first posted I thought strongly about sending a PM to the original poster letting him know of the potential consequences to the controller's career. Regrettably, I opted not to because I didn't think it was my place.
As sad as I am to admit it, this isn't the first time this site has lead to ruined careers - of good people at that. This will probably be the second time at the same facility.
I guess that's the nature of the game...there's always someone listening :wink:
-
sigh, I know its the rule and all, but still sad to hear things like this.
-
When this was first posted I thought strongly about sending a PM to the original poster letting him know of the potential consequences to the controller's career. Regrettably, I opted not to because I didn't think it was my place.
As sad as I am to admit it, this isn't the first time this site has lead to ruined careers - of good people at that.
It's not this site's fault. If it's not heard here it's heard countless other places. There have even been instances of passengers on planes making inquiries that lead to investigations. It's the nature of the profession that we are in a fishbowl, so to speak.
In fact, I commend Dave (and any others who help run the site) for their sensitivity & discretion, after contacting him personally on a particular matter recently and the way he responded.
I'm not saying you're laying blame, but I think it's fair to note that any discipline that may come is attributable to the choice(s) made, not how it may have come to light.
-
First, there are others who listen to the aviation band frequencies. Plenty of private individuals that don't even know about this web site. The primary purpose of this site is pilot education, and entertainment as a second purpose. The communications are in the public domain.
I find it offensive how the media finds something like this a real "story." There is no story here. It was a "bring your kid to work" day and I am sure it was a controlled and approved situation.
Here we have a father, in this day and age, showing interest in his kid, and the world is so quick to call foul. All the armchair "experts," and most of them never having visited an air traffic control facility. And certainly not JFK Tower. Only the best get to work at JFK, and it is a very well-run facility.
How many other parents show enough interest in their kids to show them their job? This could be one of the most memorable trips for that kid. And could even influence his future career plans. We need more of this, properly supervised, not less.
Let it go. Find some real news.
-
I thought it was interesting to hear this child joyfully taken in his parents job. You can tell it was well controlled. When I heard it on The Today Show this morning I thought something terrible happen but when I listened carefully I couldn't believe they were getting in trouble for this. Not on pilot complained, the commended him on a good job. To be honest if I was there I probably would have patted him on the back myself. Blaming this site is like blaming Facebook when people post how they feel about their job at the moment get fired. One way or another it would have gotten out; I'm just sorry their careers may be over because of it.
-
Looks like the FAA is investigating - and it is authentic
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,587801,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,587801,00.html)
-
The FAA's basis for an investigation is that the kid was not authorized to be in the tower, and, since the kid made the communications with the plane, the controller responsible was no longer in control of his/her air traffic.... yes, I think it's an overreaction, but imagine if, out of shear coincidence, something tragic had occured at that time or aroudn that time. The average citizen would be calling for heads to role for something like that occuring. I personally find it cool and am impressed with the kid; unfortunately, I will bet this will result in the controller losing their job. :(
-
My first thought was...if I were a passenger on that plane how would I feel? And, yes my first instinct was to be concerned but then as I listened both on the today show & here I realized pretty quickly, this kid was not actually controlling air traffic. I think the pilots would have been a little more concerned had there been any cause for alarm.
Now that I have had a chance to think about it, I think its pretty cool the kid got to go to work with his Dad and see what he does for a living and even get a chance to talk to the pilots.
And coming from me that is saying a LOT as I am a lousy flier ever since 1986 when I was on a USAir flight (or was it United?)that almost crashed coming out of the Tyson/McGee airport in Knoxville, TN.
Chris
Seminole, FL
-
Of course it was a controlled situation. Anyone who has been to JFK Tower or any tower knows that a kid would not be allowed to "control traffic." His dad told him exactly what to say, and exactly when to say it, in a very controlled situation.
-
Did anyone record this trough the LiveATC Feeds?
-
Just out of curiosity has anyone seen any linking or mention of liveatc.net in any of the news stories? From what I have seen only one or two stories linked the site.
-
I just watched the Today show segment of the 'junior' controller at JFK. I must admit it put a smile :-) on my face. Nothing to indicate that there was every any danger, since I am certain that the controller and perhaps his supervisor, where carefully monitoring the whole thing. Probably brightened the day of all the pilots that were on the freq at the time as well.
Once question though: Besides the concerns already mentioned by the media , Aren't there strict radio- telephone licensing rules when it comes to those legally qualified to transmit on the VHF air-band?
-
The controller has known about this site to begin with, so it's not as if he didn't know it was out there. There were pilots telling him about his Air China recording a couple of months ago.
-
Controlled or not controlled, they broke a major rule. I think not only should the controller be held responsible, but anyone who saw the kid in the restricted area. So is it ok for a surgeon to bring his kid to work and let his kid cut someone open? It's supervised so it must be ok! Come on guys!!
B
-
Do you have a link to that Air China recording?
-
Well sounds like sure enough it was referenced that it all began at this site. Lovely
-
So is it ok for a surgeon to bring his kid to work and let his kid cut someone open? It's supervised so it must be ok! Come on guys!!
B
[/quote]
From having a father who is a physician, and having been allowed into the OR on occasion to observe an operation in progress, I can assure you that "Bring Your child to work day" in a medical setting can and does happen safetly. While I wasn't handed the knife, I was allowed to ask questions on what the surgeon was doing, and ask question about the ekg rythm, and the ventilator, as well as "feel" the ambu bag as it breathed for the patient in automatic mode. I was instructed on putting on scrubs, and was never in any position to interfere with the doctors at work. Unfortunately such an opportunity would be much more difficult these days with HIPPA rules.
Now to the incident at hand, from listening to the recording, This is much to do about nothing, at any time if the kid had made a mistake in callsigns (Not very likely.. in a REPEAT after me scenario.) for take off clearences, the controller (Which was also heard on the freq.) would have also been plugged in with a headset and made a correction just like they do when they train new controllers.)
I say good for the controller, and good for KJFK tower for allowing this to take place, it's not often any more kids get a REAL opportunity to be shown where all the effort they are putting in at school will pay off.
Just my two cents.
-
Well sounds like sure enough it was referenced that it all began at this site. Lovely
Doesn't matter, even the actual tapes in the tower, are public domain and belong to the tax payers.....
-
That was a different controller. Even if he had known that someone online would hear it he probably didn't imagine it would end up on CNN (who did credit LiveATC).
-
Did anyone get a recording of this up yet?
-
I hope it's investigated quickly, and, assuming there was no significant distraction found to have been caused by the incident, that the affected employees are put right back in the cab with minimal delay.
The amount of time and money invested in someone to get to the point where they're working JFK local cannot be insignificant. Controller's should be pulled from the floor if they cannot do their job...but certainly not for this.
It was a lapse in judgment by the controller only in the sense that he should've known that if word got out, it would be completely and utterly blown out of proportion by the media and general public, forcing the FAA's hand.
As a kid, I got to adjust the heading selector on a SAS DC-9, and the #3 throttle setting on an Alitalia 747, after countless visits to cockpits on previous flights. Those moments have stuck with me for life and helped fuel my enthusiasm for aviation. I can only imagine the thrill for this kid, and what long-term impression it would've made on him/her (save for all the bad publicity).
-
Dave,
It was really nice to hear Susan Candiotti read you defense of the controller live on CNN!
Very cool, minus the fact that she said LiveATC.com instead of .net :|!
-
Hm, I thought it was cute. Be nice to have a kid rather than that one grumpy dude I get at KTUS tower sometimes.
~D
-
Dave,
It was really nice to hear Susan Candiotti read you defense of the controller live on CNN!
Very cool, minus the fact that she said LiveATC.com instead of .net :|!
+1, very nice to see that the print version included some level-headed comments from Dave, too.
-
I remember thinking that was a bad idea when I heard it.
You and I may know that safety was not compromised but you have to know that the flying public would find it disturbing. Frankly I would have been concerned that a grouchy captain would have had issue with it, much less the public.
Its easy to fault the press for reporting these kinds of things but it is the public's business to be informed about their safety as well as their government. This is not an over exuberant press, this is a bad decision on someones part in a very public arena that has come back to bite.
Bringing you kid to work day is cool but it does not necessarily mean let them do your job day.
I don't think safety was compromised and I hope it ends up as just a lesson learned rather than any ones career being affected but I have a hard time understanding how he could have expected anything but whats happening now.
-
Dave,
It was really nice to hear Susan Candiotti read you defense of the controller live on CNN!
Very cool, minus the fact that she said LiveATC.com instead of .net :|!
I was completely misquoted by CNN on the web. But that is the media's job - misquote people for ratings. Is the media really that desperate?
I have received many comments about this, and most of them are overwhelmingly in favor of the controller(s) there. True, there are some professionals, some pilots and others, who are maintaining that this could have been unsafe.
In the end, it is the controllers and the supervisors who run the facilities. They all realize the communications are in the public domain. And they are responsible for safe operations. And JFK has a stellar record of safety.
And despite what we hear in a radio conversation, those facts are unchanged. I still maintain my personal opinion that safety was not likely compromised and that there is nothing wrong with this kind of activity, in measured amounts and properly supervised. Which this certainly appeared to be.
-
Dave,
I have to agree with you and many others. I am sure the kid was under supervision, probably moreso then an ATC trainee. The kid was professional in his communication, even when the media said he was having fun. It was no worse than other communications I have heard over the years. The polits appear to have taken it as nothing more then normal operation, with the exception of the voice being younger.
Too bad there are kids out there that would love to have a parent like this ATC controller.
I can also see the reasonong behind the FAA investigation, since it was something out of the ordinary. Now if the SEC would have had the same level of concern for the people over the Bernie Madoff issue, many would not have lost thier investments.
-
That kid did an amazing job, BUT human lives are in play even when it comes to takeoff clearance, so yes this was unacceptable.
-
Without hearing the previous conversations between the controller and pilots it is difficult to know if they knew the kid was being supervised. I see a lax of judgment between both the pilots and the controller from the limited conversations available.
Why a pilot would accept a clearance from anyone he knew wasn't a controller escapes logic. I can only see a scenario of a kid sitting at the airport with his dad's hand-held transceiver listening to the ATC and start issuing clearances.
-
I would rather have a kids voice than some of the ones I encounter from time to time :-D
I have no issue with this at all. Like almost everyone has said, his father was telling him what and when to say it. I think that we need more of this in the aviation industry to spur some excitement in our Hobby/passions. Not one of the pilots was worried and all safety is still in their hands.
Too many stories of people losig thier jobs, lay-offs and other bad news. I think this is light-hearted and a good story. If this kid was sitting at home with a handheld radio playing and directing traffic that would be another story.
-
Seriously, The kid was only telling traffic they were clear for takeoff or to contact departure. He wasn't giving IFR clearances or vectoring anyone. Part of the FAA's mission statement is to promote aviation.
-
Dave, you are spot on about the entire thing. Much ado about nothing. My only fear is for the poor guy's job.
-
to: aevins post #2 regrets, maybe you should have , i felt the same .. dave post #5 i agree, right on !!! speedotann #15 = NO COMPARISON in my mind. aerolink post #16 google air china 981 dave #27 AGREE chaffe #30 pilots WERE advised , listen again..
-
Ironically, one good thing that has transpired in regards to this forum is that this story is bringing out a lot of lurkers. I've been on this site for years, yet this is this topic is the first one i've even made a post in!
-
chaffe #30 pilots WERE advised , listen again..
The first part of the recording was a takeoff clearance issued to JetBlue from the kid, so like I said before, without knowing the previous conversations it's impossible to know if the pilots were informed.
-
First, there are others who listen to the aviation band frequencies. Plenty of private individuals that don't even know about this web site. The primary purpose of this site is pilot education, and entertainment as a second purpose. The communications are in the public domain.
I find it offensive how the media finds something like this a real "story." There is no story here. It was a "bring your kid to work" day and I am sure it was a controlled and approved situation.
Here we have a father, in this day and age, showing interest in his kid, and the world is so quick to call foul. All the armchair "experts," and most of them never having visited an air traffic control facility. And certainly not JFK Tower. Only the best get to work at JFK, and it is a very well-run facility.
How many other parents show enough interest in their kids to show them their job? This could be one of the most memorable trips for that kid. And could even influence his future career plans. We need more of this, properly supervised, not less.
Let it go. Find some real news.
Thank God for people like you buddy. You took the words right out of my mouth. It is sad that the media spends its time talking about innocent and harmless stuff like this. Sully's situation, yes. 9/11, yes. Air France over the water in a storm, yes. Not this kind of crap. But that's the FAA and the media for ya. Take something so harmless and blow it up in order to get a story and publicity so that someone will get their check and a pat on the back. Sad to think it but is this something that we should worry about in terms of this site being shut down? That would be a crying shame all because the media has nothing else better to do. But that's what free speech will get ya sometimes.
-
For comparison, how about this one?
Is this a kid, or a real controller (Working KBOS Ground today...)
-
Without hearing the previous conversations between the controller and pilots it is difficult to know if they knew the kid was being supervised. I see a lax of judgment between both the pilots and the controller from the limited conversations available.
Why a pilot would accept a clearance from anyone he knew wasn't a controller escapes logic. I can only see a scenario of a kid sitting at the airport with his dad's hand-held transceiver listening to the ATC and start issuing clearances.
I think that is being overly cautious. If there WAS an unauthorized transmission made, you can bet that the tower cab would pick up on it and alert pilots to disregard the message (there are procedures in place to handle that scenario). The transmissions that were made by the kid were completely in context and expected by the pilots (takeoff clnc and instructions to contact departure).
-
For comparison, how about this one?
Is this a kid, or a real controller (Working KBOS Ground today...)
HaHaHa... Funny... Sounds like a 10 year old boy...
-
I listened to the clip today. The kid was polite, cheerful and articulate. He sounded much better than the controllers at their quickpace cadence.
I hope the controller doesn't get more than a few days on the beach from this. If liveatc didn't capture this, he'd probably get a talking to. Besides, it's not like a transfer out of the JFK area would be punishment.
-
boy the media is having a field day with this one...lol
I heard it for the first time today on HLN, and just wanted to say that personally I thought the kid did a great job, didn't studder or stumble with his words at all. I have heard a lot of ATC communications over the years, and if I hadn't noticed that he was a little guy from the sound of his voice, I would have bet that he had been controlling for 20 years.
The real sad thing is, if he thought at all about following in his dads career footsteps? I bet he don't now! That's a shame because he sounded to me like he would have made a great controller. Something that KJFK is short of...
-
Good Day All,
I am a newly registered member, read this story on CNN. Listening to aircraft has always been a hobby of mine and this site is great! I can't seem to find the clip you are discussing, where would it be?
-
I have been a visitor to this fantastic site for soooooo long and finally registered as a member today from UK.
The press and TV in UK are having a field day with this kid in jfk tower.
A hard one to call in view of the governing legislation controlling the job, but if as suggested it was a bring a kid to work day to see what dad/mum does, I heard the tx and the kid was better than some regulars I have heard, it doesn`t make it right but as some one said it could I am sure it can be handled in house and I bet it won`t happen again.
-
abqnav:
Flip back to the Feb 18 postings - 'new controller at JFK'
-
@abqnav
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/new-kjfk-controller/
-
I just found out about this site today, thanks to NBC News. I think it is fantastic.
As a non-current licensed private pilot it helps me keep up to date with aviation.
As far as the child in JFK tower, here we go again with the media making a mountain out of a mole hill that will probably cause a controller to lose his job. That is a shame, and I hope he doesn't. Although it IS probably against the rules and it would have been terrible if, just by chance, something terrible happened at that particular time, no harm, no foul. Until the FAA releases all the "facts", I think
the media and anyone else should leave well enough alone.
Now Capt. Sully retiring, is a newsworthy item. Congratulations Capt. Sully!
-
As a licensed pilot myself I see no harm whatsoever in what the controller did.
It's not like he left his kid there alone and abandoned his post..
I hope nothing happens to this guy.
-
LiveATC is a double edged sword. More exposure to the profession, as well as more scrutiny by no nothing public. Previously it wouldve taken a foia request to get those tapes. Wonder who's the editorial ass clown who thought it'd be a great story instead of a feel good human interest story about inspiring yr kids to be something.
-
For comparison, how about this one?
Is this a kid, or a real controller (Working KBOS Ground today...)
Audio in question is a 40+ yr old female controller at BOS.
-
It's been one of the top of our TV/Radio news today here in NZ! :roll: Must't be much else going on.
Grayson
Tauranga, New Zealand
-
FAA investigating a second incident the next day involving the same controller but a different child. Two transmissions were made.
-
A hard one to call in view of the governing legislation controlling the job, but if as suggested it was a bring a kid to work day to see what dad/mum does, I heard the tx and the kid was better than some regulars I have heard, it doesn't make it right but as some one said it could I am sure it can be handled in house and I bet it won`t happen again.
Too late. The Pit Bulls of the world media see a scandal in this and are remaking a grain of salt into the next high altitude mountainous obstacle to rival Mt. Everest. The FAA is going to have to publish new flight pubs for the NYC terminal area so that both controllers and pilots will avoid impact with reality.
Another $42M consultancy from some never before heard from consortium, $14M to survey the entire area, $12M in printing and distribution costs, and a $200M campaign to recruit young men and women into the field we admire and respect.
-
That kid did an amazing job, BUT human lives are in play even when it comes to takeoff clearance, so yes this was unacceptable.
There's a difference between giving a blind takeoff clearance and a supervised takeoff clearance. If the controller had left the youngster to give takeoff clearances and departure handoffs to himself, then yea, that would be an inexcusable problem. But no, the controller was (and presumably an additional supervisor, and heck, probably more certified controllers were) undoubtedly watching his movement areas at all times when the kid was issuing instructions; he was also issuing landing clearances on the same frequency. This controller (you can tell by his voice) has been on the position forever and knows what he's doing. Logically speaking, he wouldn't risk his job by performing an unsafe operation. Radio instructions are only a fraction of what it takes to issue a safe takeoff clearance. Scanning the runway, coordinating with the departure controller, scanning the arrival corridor, knowing who's up next, knowing the wind, looking at the radar feed, and so much more is involved with the issuance of a takeoff clearance than a small child could handle, which is my reasoning for supporting the controller. He wasn't being stupid about it.
There's no reason to believe that safety was compromised, however, I understand that is the reasoning behind the investigation.
-
@abqnav
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/new-kjfk-controller/
didn't see it there either, would someone pls post a direct link to the mp3 thx
-
@abqnav
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/new-kjfk-controller/
didn't see it there either, would someone pls post a direct link to the mp3 thx
I'm completely new to this site; it's really not that hard. In small text at the bottom of that post, there's a link to the mp3 saying:
New KJFK Controller.mp3 (1139.68 KB - downloaded 2455 times.)
-
@abqnav
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/new-kjfk-controller/
didn't see it there either, would someone pls post a direct link to the mp3 thx
I'm completely new to this site; it's really not that hard. In small text at the bottom of that post, there's a link to the mp3 saying:
New KJFK Controller.mp3 (1139.68 KB - downloaded 2455 times.)
yeah yeah I have bad S.A.
-
As someone said earlier - 'much ado about nothing'. But since the media has blasted it literally around the world now, those in the upper echelon of the FAA have to do a little CYA control.
The controller and his supervisor have been suspended pending an 'official investigation'.
My advice to the FAA would be to lighten up a bit. Your stressed-out folks need a little diversion once in a while. The situation purely innocent, and flight safety was never in any way compromised.
Overall, I think that the whole episode was fun.
-
Unfortunately, when I first head this I thought the same thing...
It was a nice gesture with no ill intentions, but you knew that somewhere, someone was going to be listening in and was going to pitch a fit about it. Any government job comes with a "rule book" that rivals the thickness of the World Book Encyclopedia all of which is designed to thwart liability and claims against the employer. Stupid policies? Perhaps, but still if you work somewhere, you have to agree and accept them if you want to keep your job.
All that said, I loved it the first time I heard it and still do...but something in my gut told me the responsible ATC would probably be typing his resumé.
-
First, there are others who listen to the aviation band frequencies. Plenty of private individuals that don't even know about this web site. The primary purpose of this site is pilot education, and entertainment as a second purpose. The communications are in the public domain.
I find it offensive how the media finds something like this a real "story." There is no story here. It was a "bring your kid to work" day and I am sure it was a controlled and approved situation.
Here we have a father, in this day and age, showing interest in his kid, and the world is so quick to call foul. All the armchair "experts," and most of them never having visited an air traffic control facility. And certainly not JFK Tower. Only the best get to work at JFK, and it is a very well-run facility.
How many other parents show enough interest in their kids to show them their job? This could be one of the most memorable trips for that kid. And could even influence his future career plans. We need more of this, properly supervised, not less.
Let it go. Find some real news.
Thank God for people like you buddy. You took the words right out of my mouth. It is sad that the media spends its time talking about innocent and harmless stuff like this. Sully's situation, yes. 9/11, yes. Air France over the water in a storm, yes. Not this kind of crap. But that's the FAA and the media for ya. Take something so harmless and blow it up in order to get a story and publicity so that someone will get their check and a pat on the back. Sad to think it but is this something that we should worry about in terms of this site being shut down? That would be a crying shame all because the media has nothing else better to do. But that's what free speech will get ya sometimes.
I couldn't disagree more, and think the prior poster's note about having a take your kid to work day at the ER, and allowing your kid to put in a chest tube under dad's supervision is an appropriate analogy. It just so happened that things ended up without anyone hurt, but that's a function of luck, not of proof of a "controlled environment." This was not a controlled environment - it became uncontrolled as soon as the kid put on the headset. What if he misunderstood what dad was telling him and directed JB to the wrong taxiway or runway? Or gave the wrong departure freq? What if that incorrect direction from JFK GC resulted in the JB flight crossing an active arrival runway?
Bottom line: everyone got lucky on this one. FAA should absolutely drop the hammer on the controller and his Supervisor.
-
Yeah ..... give it a rest for chr**tsakes
yes it was against FAA regs, and was probably therefore a bit irresponsible. But I'm sure it was done with all good intentions, with the knowledge of the watch commander, and known by all other ATC an Pilots involved.
I'm sure it was during a slow period, and Air Traffic was NOT sacrificed in anyway. Dad had his hand on the override mike button at all times.
Now, how do we all gather the facts together and tell the general public not to use the same mentality as the news media is using!
Give it a break... the kid was not controlling air traffic. An innocent harmless mistake was made. Thank you!
-
I am confused. The sound clip that is posted on "Interesting Recordings" with this title doesn't jib with the discussion on this thread. If you listen carefully it sounds to me like a female controller, all be it with a high pitched, child like voice, but it is obviously someone who is trained in the terminology and is familiar with the taxiways, gates and runways. This can't possibly be a kid on a day off from school.
The other clip "New controller at JFK" is the one that is getting all the attention in the news.
-
I couldn't disagree more, and think the prior poster's note about having a take your kid to work day at the ER, and allowing your kid to put in a chest tube under dad's supervision is an appropriate analogy. It just so happened that things ended up without anyone hurt, but that's a function of luck, not of proof of a "controlled environment." This was not a controlled environment - it became uncontrolled as soon as the kid put on the headset. What if he misunderstood what dad was telling him and directed JB to the wrong taxiway or runway? Or gave the wrong departure freq? What if that incorrect direction from JFK GC resulted in the JB flight crossing an active arrival runway?
Bottom line: everyone got lucky on this one. FAA should absolutely drop the hammer on the controller and his Supervisor.
Actually, if you listened to the clip, the kid was giving the instruction "Cleared for take off" and "contact departure.' These are duties of the local controller. The kid was not taxiing aircraft and you don't issue the departure frequency to IFR aircraft at the local control position (they were given the departure frequency when they received their clearance). The kid was on local control, not ground control. Thus, part of your post is incorrect. To say that it was an uncontrolled environment I think is incorrect; the dad had control of the frequency at all times and knew what was going on. Also, he is a controller... it's his job to keep things under control. To say that the kid immediately undermined ALL control of the position is false as it is blatantly obvious the kid is being told what to say. Also, the dad was giving other control instructions such as "position and hold." If the kid said something wrong it is without doubt the dad would then correct what was said. Even real controllers say things incorrectly and then have to correct themselves.
Lastly to set the record straight, this happened at a slow time for JFK, not a huge departure or arrival push.
-
I completely agree with Dave... "Here we have a father, in this day and age, showing interest in his kid, and the world is so quick to call foul." The kid for all we know probably has a strong interest in aviation and wants to follow his father's footsteps.
It's the media's nature to blow things all out of proportion and indeed they did just that. Why stop now?
I see nothing wrong with this scenario, the controller was in control at all times and the kid was obviously told exactly what to say and when to say it. Whether I'd be piloting or sitting as a passenger on one of those flights - at no time would I have felt uncomfortable. Some of you folks including the FAA need to lighten up a little.
-
You're all right. FAA really needs to lighten up a little bit and if they don't want something like this to happen, shouldn't they ban all visitors to the control tower?
-
I will be really, really sad if anything happens to the controller.
I hope the FAA saying they are investing is just the bosses listening to the tapes, agreeing "okay, maybe this isn't a good idea, don't do it anymore without permission" (and I'm sure he had supervisor permission before hand too).
The kid did a great job and it was obvious that the father was telling him what to say...Do I think it is a good idea... ehh probably not just cause it is causing a distraction in the control tower but during a slow time, no big deal. Do I think it is professional? Yeah, I think it still was professionally done.
I also hope this doesn't make the controllers become monotone drones because they're afraid of ending up on liveatc now if they misspeak.
-
First, there are others who listen to the aviation band frequencies. Plenty of private individuals that don't even know about this web site. The primary purpose of this site is pilot education, and entertainment as a second purpose. The communications are in the public domain.
I find it offensive how the media finds something like this a real "story." There is no story here. It was a "bring your kid to work" day and I am sure it was a controlled and approved situation.
Here we have a father, in this day and age, showing interest in his kid, and the world is so quick to call foul. All the armchair "experts," and most of them never having visited an air traffic control facility. And certainly not JFK Tower. Only the best get to work at JFK, and it is a very well-run facility.
How many other parents show enough interest in their kids to show them their job? This could be one of the most memorable trips for that kid. And could even influence his future career plans. We need more of this, properly supervised, not less.
Let it go. Find some real news.
I agree with Dave on this. As a Private Pilot I have learned to hate the media. The media angers me, and is the LAST place I get my aviation news from. I feel bad for the father.
As a kid I remember going to work with my Dad (an airline mechanic at LAX) and I will never forget those trips for the rest of my life. The media has taken an important event for that father and his son, and trashed and sensationalized it as usual. Sensationalism sells commercials and that's what they are in the business to do, and aviation mishaps are a free jackpot for the media.
The towers have spare headset jacks all over the place, the kid was simply plugged into the party line. This kid NEVER had any control of the skies, (duhh),and his Dad didn't go off to lunch! I wish there was something we could do for that controller. I recommend posting your editorial comments on any media website you see this story posted, it may get more public attention than posting here.
-
I couldn't disagree more, and think the prior poster's note about having a take your kid to work day at the ER, and allowing your kid to put in a chest tube under dad's supervision is an appropriate analogy. It just so happened that things ended up without anyone hurt, but that's a function of luck, not of proof of a "controlled environment." This was not a controlled environment - it became uncontrolled as soon as the kid put on the headset. What if he misunderstood what dad was telling him and directed JB to the wrong taxiway or runway? Or gave the wrong departure freq? What if that incorrect direction from JFK GC resulted in the JB flight crossing an active arrival runway?
Bottom line: everyone got lucky on this one. FAA should absolutely drop the hammer on the controller and his Supervisor.
Listen to the entire recording, the kid gave only takeoff and departure hand off after the controller had position and held the plane on the runway. Yes, there are rules concerning communication and access, but this is blown way out of proportions. I feel really sad for the controller and I hope they allow him back to work soon.
-
the FAA should lighten up theres so many sad things happening around the world at the moment he bought a smile to my face just heard that all visits to towers have been banned.
-
That kid did an amazing job, BUT human lives are in play even when it comes to takeoff clearance, so yes this was unacceptable.
The kid said the words, under the supervision of a qualified adult. The kid did not make a decision as to whether to issue the takeoff clearance. The well-qualified adult did.
-
The FAA has to bluster and investigate with the help of the "lamestream media" to distract from all the other safety failures and inaction on safety issues they are guilty of in aviation. The bureaucrats at the FAA are just covering for their own incompetence. Picking on a kid with such self righteousness is ridiculous and just points out their irrelevance.
-
I have listened to countless hours from this controller over the past six months. There is no way that air traffic was compromised. The controller was in total control of the situation at the time. I would have no problem being on a plane at JFK, and if I had landed and someone told me that I was on a plane that had the radio calls from a child, I just laugh and say it figures he would do something interesting while I wasn’t listening.
It’s a shame, air traffic control isn’t on every kids wish list to be when they grow up, and now I fear we might have lost on a good one. I just hope that the controller is able to continue with his career, but the way the news is stomping into the ground, I doubt it.
-
Is it possible that the FAA is reacting like this to send a message?
-
Quite possibly they want to make a point, yes....
As for the rest all I can say is that I concur with dave and those who call the media bloomin vultures.....*irony* But then ooh yeah, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing else to report, I totally forgot that the silly season has just been extended to cover 365 days per year......
-
I don't understand all the apologists for this controller. This was a bad idea all the time. I was shocked when I first heard this recording here and wondered how many days it would be before there was an investigation. Now I know.
Why was it ok for this controller to have a non-sterile cab? We blamed the Colgan crash on non-sterile cockpit. The Hudson crash on a controller talking to his girlfriend. The mid-west mishap on pilots playing with their laptops... etc... etc...
As someone who has studied Human Factors and Accident Reduction (in the power utility business) I have some understanding that any distraction can increase the chance for human error. The tower cab is no place to be running a day care.
That said, absolutely it's a great thing to bring your kid to work. At the power utility at which I worked they had a very rich program for bring your kid to work day. We took kids up in the bucket trucks. We gave a demonstration on the dangers of electricity (by instantly cooking hot dogs with high voltage lines -- fun!). We toured them through the power plant in a controlled way. We did not let them climb up a live pole, we didn't let them control the rods. You can bring your kid to work without actually having them do mission-critical work.
All in all this was a lapse in judgment. I think the controller should probably receive a warning or some small form of discipline. Let everyone learn from this. Maybe take it as an opportunity to implement some better controls on what can and can not go on in the tower.
Just my $.02 from an arm-chair wannabe private pilot.
-
(in the power utility business)
Just my $.02 from an arm-chair wannabe private pilot.
Thanks. But we have enough spare change thrown in by qualified individuals.
The general concensus on most boards is that pilots and controllers just don't give a hoot. And the folks who are getting their panties in a bunch are the folks like yourself....pretty much the same folks the media is targeting.
Lets break down this incident: Was the child CONTROLLING aircraft? No. The dad was. Was the kid parroting what his dad told him to say? Yes. Was this unprofessional? Slightly.....although the jetBlue crew seemed to not think so, nor did any other pilots on freq. Was the dad wearing a headset that he could have stepped in and corrected any stumbling the kid could have done? Yes...in a heartbeat. Did this incident happen at one of the slowest times at JFK? Yes. Would this have ever happened during a high-saturation time? Not in a million years. Was this unsafe? Not in the LEAST!!! Now, lets not generalize here, I wanna know from those of you who think it was unsafe WHY it was unsafe?
In one of the two aircraft I fly, the right seat is a PASSENGER seat. (PC-12). Now, here is a non-qualified individual (lets pretend it's you), with a full set of controls in front of him, and his/her buddies in the back. This can become an extremely distracting situation when the weather is good and workload is low, nevermind when the weather goes down and I'm on the arrival or departure into TEB. But I take steps to mitigate the distraction including a full "sterile cockpit" briefing. And I will even utilize the right seat pax from time to time in assisting me with setting the right side altimeter, handing me charts, etc...
Now, here we are, fat dumb and happy in the high 20's. I've turned his headset mic back on, and we are conversing normally. Workload is extremely low, the frequency is fairly dead. Now, I anticipate a handoff to Atlanta Center, explain to my right seater that, shortly, we are going to get handed off to Atlanta center on 128.25. At this point, he knows our callsign, has heard about 15-20 handoffs, and knows the jist of what to say. I tell him: "As soon as center comes on and says 'Pilatus NXXXXX contact Atlanta Center now 128.25', push THAT little button and say '128.25 Pilatus NXXXXX'...ok?" And he does it perfectly. Lets say he stumbles a bit, or messes it up some how....WHAT NOW? OH JESUS!! WE'RE ALL DEAD!!!Oh, wait a minute, I have the overriding mic button and repeat the handoff in a nanosecond.
The above is pretty much the exact same thing that took place in the JFK tower cab last week.
-
Just a longtime lurker ... just want to say this has gotten too much attention by the ever-news hungry media. I support the controller.
Let's propose to ban "take our sons/daughter day" and wipe it completely from our lives at this rate. No more kids visiting YOUR place of work/office/home office/wherever.
-
I don't post much on here because I really don't often have anything to add beyond what everyone else is saying. This time I'm making an exception. Its the media that has made this into a major incident and the livelihood of a d*mn fine controller is now in jeopardy because of it. I'd be curious to know how many of the people on here that feel this controller should be crucified are actually pilots and have also been in the left seat of an aircraft at JFK? The controllers at this airport are some of the finest that can be found in the United States ATC system. To suggest that any one of them would intentionally act in a manner that would jeopardize the safety of the aircraft under their control is quite frankly offensive. Was the kid on the radio - yes he was. Was he EVER IN CONTROL OF ANY AIRCRAFT - NO HE WAS NOT. Pilots are trained to question and confirm any instruction that they feel could jeopardize the safety of their aircraft. Did anyone hear any question or concern from any of the pilots regarding what they were being told? No- you did not and the reason for that is obvious - they knew that the controller was right there and was actually the one issuing the instructions.
For the many media lurkers that are on here - why not bring that point out. Oh - I know why - its not newsworthy unless it can be skewed to appear to be scandalous.
-
My God. Why am I always surprised by how dumb the media is? I must not be so bright.
~D
-
(in the power utility business)
Just my $.02 from an arm-chair wannabe private pilot.
Thanks. But we have enough spare change thrown in by qualified individuals.
The general concensus on most boards is that pilots and controllers just don't give a hoot. And the folks who are getting their panties in a bunch are the folks like yourself....pretty much the same folks the media is targeting.
"...on most boards" You might want to consider sources of info other than anonymous internet message boards. NATCA issued a statement (hopefully they qualify as qualified individuals) that hardly indicates that controllers don't give a hoot, as you say. It seems to me that the most visceral reactions are coming from those who are blaming the media and calling them names, and saying they are responsible for ruining someone's career. I'd put that in the "panties in a bunch" camp.
I've heard a lot of more reasonable reactions, along the lines that the controller made a mistake and should not have done what he did. But he's human and prone to mistakes. That he did it 2 days indicates planning, so it wasn't just a rash decision. The supe showed very poor judgment also. Hopefully discipline will be meted out with compassion and sensibility. Hopefully it becomes a lesson learned and nobody's career is ruined. No bunched panties here, my friend. Was safety compromised? No. Is there another issue? Yes. This incident gives people the opportunity to think controllers don't take their jobs seriously, and that's a black eye on the profession we can ill afford. That's the problem with what was done. All the analogies to other lines of work are red herrings.
Bottom line is, plenty of "qualified individuals" give a hoot.
-
We did not let them climb up a live pole, we didn't let them control the rods. You can bring your kid to work without actually having them do mission-critical work.
Because doing any of those things requires previous knowledge or skill. Reciting some phrases back is not 'mission-critical' work, nor does it require any skill, kids learn to speak and mimic us at a very young age.
-
You're all right. FAA really needs to lighten up a little bit and if they don't want something like this to happen, shouldn't they ban all visitors to the control tower?
And that's exactly what they did... they banned all visitors to all FAA facilities until further notice.
-
Forgetting about the issue of children in the towers for the moment, which clearly happened...It just is not the case in the recording here. This recording is actually of a 41 year old woman and not at JFK. Hard to believe, I know, but it is true.
-
THAT little button and say '128.25 Pilatus NXXXXX'...ok?" And he does it perfectly. Lets say he stumbles a bit, or messes it up some how....WHAT NOW? OH JESUS!! WE'RE ALL DEAD!!!Oh, wait a minute, I have the overriding mic button and repeat the handoff in a nanosecond.
The above is pretty much the exact same thing that took place in the JFK tower cab last week.
And that's wrong to and you should be disciplined but that's not really my call as I don't pay your salary (unless I'm a pax). In the case of the controller I do pay his salary so I get a voice. I'm also a pax on planes he controls, so from that respect too.
As for running a non-sterile cockpit and having fun with your pax in the cockpit: see Aeroflot Flight 593. Nuff said.
-
A sterile cockpit flying straight and level in the flight levels? That'd be one long and boring trip for the pilots.
-
THAT little button and say '128.25 Pilatus NXXXXX'...ok?" And he does it perfectly. Lets say he stumbles a bit, or messes it up some how....WHAT NOW? OH JESUS!! WE'RE ALL DEAD!!!Oh, wait a minute, I have the overriding mic button and repeat the handoff in a nanosecond.
The above is pretty much the exact same thing that took place in the JFK tower cab last week.
And that's wrong to and you should be disciplined but that's not really my call as I don't pay your salary (unless I'm a pax). In the case of the controller I do pay his salary so I get a voice. I'm also a pax on planes he controls, so from that respect too.
As for running a non-sterile cockpit and having fun with your pax in the cockpit: see Aeroflot Flight 593. Nuff said.
Remember, the Aeroflot accident was cause by the child WHO holding the yoke in his hand WHICH can directly kill himself and other people, but in this case, the child is just acting like a messenger, correct me if I am wrong, your theory is that while the Controller is controlling through the microphone, actually, the traffic is controlling by the microphone, but not the ATC.
-
You're all right. FAA really needs to lighten up a little bit and if they don't want something like this to happen, shouldn't they ban all visitors to the control tower?
And that's exactly what they did... they banned all visitors to all FAA facilities until further notice.
I always that that the FAA restricted visitors from all facilities permanently following the 9/11 attacks? Sorry if I am mistaken.
-
Well put Mr Larson.
No one is to blame but the controller himself.
Bring you kid to work day does not mean let your kid do your job day. Accidents are almost never due to one single cause. It makes no sense to add a wild card like a kid making transmissions no matter how well done to the mix.
This blaming the media for blowing things out of proportion is misguided at best. In what world would kids transmitting instructions on the radio at JFK not be news. I still can't fathom what else the controller thought would happen.
-
You're all right. FAA really needs to lighten up a little bit and if they don't want something like this to happen, shouldn't they ban all visitors to the control tower?
And that's exactly what they did... they banned all visitors to all FAA facilities until further notice.
I always that that the FAA restricted visitors from all facilities permanently following the 9/11 attacks? Sorry if I am mistaken.
nope...we had tours all the time.
As of a couple days ago no visitors are allowed in the operating area's anymore, that is unless they have a work related purpose (IE, me going to a different facility and touring for some reason).
its the normal knee jerk reaction of the FAA...but the GENOT is only for 90 days, so thats when i assume normal tours will be allowed again
-
Well put Mr Larson.
No one is to blame but the controller himself.
Bring you kid to work day does not mean let your kid do your job day. Accidents are almost never due to one single cause. It makes no sense to add a wild card like a kid making transmissions no matter how well done to the mix.
This blaming the media for blowing things out of proportion is misguided at best. In what world would kids transmitting instructions on the radio at JFK not be news. I still can't fathom what else the controller thought would happen.
if you want to blame someone...you can also blame the CIC/SUP that allowed it to happen....
-
Well put Mr Larson.
No one is to blame but the controller himself.
Bring you kid to work day does not mean let your kid do your job day. Accidents are almost never due to one single cause. It makes no sense to add a wild card like a kid making transmissions no matter how well done to the mix.
This blaming the media for blowing things out of proportion is misguided at best. In what world would kids transmitting instructions on the radio at JFK not be news. I still can't fathom what else the controller thought would happen.
you may also blame the FAA for they didn't forbidden the children get close to the control panel, let say... 10CM?
-
It's one thing to bring your kids to work to see what you do in the tower (which I think is great and commendable)... it's another to have him on the radio directing departing aircraft carrying 150+ passengers.
The FAA considers this unprofessional (even as the kid did a great job on the radio), but it's a possible distraction... one on which the FAA prohibits.
If this was a GA airport, and not an International one such as JFK (ave 70 flts/hr... PLUS the alternate traffic pattern due to the Bay Rwy closed ), it prob would've been overlooked
-
PLUS the alternate traffic pattern due to the Bay Rwy closed
God, if the bay rwy (31L) was closed during this time, that'd be real news. Think before you post please.
-
You're all right. FAA really needs to lighten up a little bit and if they don't want something like this to happen, shouldn't they ban all visitors to the control tower?
And that's exactly what they did... they banned all visitors to all FAA facilities until further notice.
I always that that the FAA restricted visitors from all facilities permanently following the 9/11 attacks? Sorry if I am mistaken.
nope...we had tours all the time.
As of a couple days ago no visitors are allowed in the operating area's anymore, that is unless they have a work related purpose (IE, me going to a different facility and touring for some reason).
its the normal knee jerk reaction of the FAA...but the GENOT is only for 90 days, so thats when i assume normal tours will be allowed again
while i hope you're right, i have a bad feeling that's just the length of the they're giving themselves to publish an official notice or worse yet, a change to the 7210.
-
that kid really know how to talk on freq jejeje
-
I can't believe the amount of people who are not controllers or pilots who are ready to sacrifice this guy's career over this. Angers me.
~D
-
Innocent and harmless? This time maybe. So it was all cute for daddy to have his 10 year old play on the headset and talk to pilots - even if repeating commands verbatim. Many are saying this is not a big deal, but this really is a BIG DEAL for one reason:
The pilots on the other end hearing a 10 year old child giving clearances, and actually following the commands without knowing who is issuing them. As a pilot, if I heard a little kid give me a command, I would immediately ask for the control tower supervisor...questioning the command I was given. I would have also questioned if the call even came from the tower, as anyone with an Icom handheld can key up and talk to pilots. This is what the first pilot should have done, then there would not have been four more correspondences.
Controller Daddy: Stupid stupid. Maybe this might be accepted in some remote podunk airfield, but at JFK? Dude - JFK!!! Sorry...I have no mercy.
-
Lets say he stumbles a bit, or messes it up some how....WHAT NOW? OH JESUS!! WE'RE ALL DEAD!!!Oh, wait a minute, I have the overriding mic button and repeat the handoff in a nanosecond.
The above is pretty much the exact same thing that took place in the JFK tower cab last week.
Exactly!
Even more proof that every one of us who are pilots have experienced: Your first time on the frequency. I can remember mine perfectly. Even though I must have run through that taxi request and takeoff clearance a million times in my head, I completely butchered them both. What happened? It got correct by my CFI, and the tower had a good laugh at my expence. That is the worst that could have happened in this JFK situation.
Both of our situations were completely safe and (contrary to Mr. Larson's comment) completely legal. Im sure you werent opperating commercially when your friend was in the right seat, so if you as PIC feel that it doesnt pose a threat to safety, letting your friend transmit over the radio is perfectly legal.
-
On air conversation about JFK controller - Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKrffnq4V1A
I wanted to go to a new airport. While on KJAN approach frequency, discussion ensued about the recent incident at JFK. It wouldn't surprise me that the feelings the approach controller conveyed in the video represented most ATC controllers. I am also glad he didn't lose his style of personal style of handling traffic and humor :-)
6 minute video includes take off from KMBO, initial contact with approach and conversation above, landing KIDL and landing KMBO
-
Innocent and harmless? This time maybe. So it was all cute for daddy to have his 10 year old play on the headset and talk to pilots - even if repeating commands verbatim. Many are saying this is not a big deal, but this really is a BIG DEAL for one reason:
The pilots on the other end hearing a 10 year old child giving clearances, and actually following the commands without knowing who is issuing them. As a pilot, if I heard a little kid give me a command, I would immediately ask for the control tower supervisor...questioning the command I was given. I would have also questioned if the call even came from the tower, as anyone with an Icom handheld can key up and talk to pilots. This is what the first pilot should have done, then there would not have been four more correspondences.
Controller Daddy: Stupid stupid. Maybe this might be accepted in some remote podunk airfield, but at JFK? Dude - JFK!!! Sorry...I have no mercy.
Once again...someone who seems to have no information. If you read the news or heard the conversations you would know that the pilots were warned that the child would be speaking.
Now remember, controllers give instructions, not commands. The pilot has COMMAND of the aircraft. As a pilot, you would know that.
~D
-
tucraceman you are right, there is a warning before, the pilots all know what is going on, I think honestly that is not a big deal, first everyone was advised, second they are under supervision, third the are controlling ground and tower, I think a very big deal would have been a kid talking on JFK approach, or center o something of that sort.
There are bigger problems in the aviation industry to focus on this
-
Here's the real story:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/ny_skies_out_of_control_qfwTTA9m3PH8gTJ4rOsk9J
-
nope...we had tours all the time.
As of a couple days ago no visitors are allowed in the operating area's anymore, that is unless they have a work related purpose (IE, me going to a different facility and touring for some reason).
its the normal knee jerk reaction of the FAA...but the GENOT is only for 90 days, so thats when i assume normal tours will be allowed again
I am disappointed in this reaction by the FAA. I believe that student pilots can learn some valuable lessons from a tower visit. It helps cure the "the controllers are out to get me" mentality that sometimes develops with pilots. During my student pilot days, I had a couple of lessons with a Tower Controller who is a CFII. I learned some valuable lessons regarding ATC by flying with him. Those lessons have helped me in a few situations.
Hopefully the FAA realizes the benefits of tours and doesn't make the GENOT permanent.
-
Here's the real story:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/ny_skies_out_of_control_qfwTTA9m3PH8gTJ4rOsk9J
+1
-
If the air traffic controller functions can be carried out safely by (inexperieced) kids then the pay rate should be reduced for all controllers to $4.95 per hour. Similarly the captain and crew's wages and overall airfares should be reduced by the same amount.
If, on the other hand, there is a serious safety issue involved then the crew and controller should be sacked.
In the meantime I wouldn't fly with the (Air Mexico?) airline ... ever!
-
If the air traffic controller functions can be carried out safely by (inexperieced) kids then the pay rate should be reduced for all controllers to $4.95 per hour. Similarly the captain and crew's wages and overall airfares should be reduced by the same amount.
You seem to be insinuating that the child was performing ATC functions.
1. The child was repeating what he was being told to say. He was performing air traffic functions just as much as the radio receiver in the plane's cockpit does when it receives the radio transmission from ATC and plays it though the pilots headset or speaker.
2. The child was repeating take off clearances and frequency changes. That's about 1% of an Air Traffic Controllers duties.
So I really hope that's not what you were insinuating, because that would sound really foolish.
-
dont bother replying to all those first posters popping up lately. they give me a headace.
-
You seem to be insinuating that the child was performing ATC functions.
2. The child was repeating take off clearances and frequency changes. That's about 1% of an Air Traffic Controllers duties.
So I really hope that's not what you were insinuating, because that would sound really foolish.
Unfortunately what Arthur posted is the exact public image portrayed in this event.
Kinda similar to a passenger percerption of a commercial airline flight. They have no clue what it takes for that flight to get off the ground. They just see the guy with the big hat get into the plane unaware of the prep time before the flight or other duties required to get the flight off the ground
-
So, I came across a few posts, read an article somewhere and heard the recording on a website. Not much of an investigation but I wonder this: If Obama has a 10 year old daughter and takes him to the White House and sits him in his chair and tell him "Kid, this is the Medicare application we use here and I must click this little button here so everybody gets coverage this month. Click it and you will be providing coverage to all Medicare users" and the kid clicks the button, does that mean we should perform a coup d'etat on Obama and declare him unfit to fulfill his duties? Do we really need to assume he handled total and absolute power on every nuclear warhead on the country to a 10 year old child cos she clicked on something unrelated? Do we have to assume the White House was emptied and rendered powerless? Should we take away the presidents pay and determine his responsibilities can be undertaken by, lets say, a 10 year old?
I mean, i remember my dad used to let me stamp his signature on the letters his office issued when he worked at a university and as a child I felt empowered, but no decision was left to my judgement because of that little action. Perhaps we are all being childish.
I heard the recording and it seems that 1) pilots agreed. 2) the guy was there in the frequency (you can hear him too).
I've had the chance of doing on the job training to new ATCs and trust me sitting there with the headset on telling someone what to do or having to start talking right away because better instructions need to be issued IMMEDIATELY, if maybe delicate, is not something so newsworthy.
But being and ATC and having thought of all that I cannot imagine the big bosses at FAA and NATCA are unaware of it. I'm thinking is this a matter of public perception and that for the people to feel safe all this circus needs to be put in place. The show must go on if we want people to feel safe flying and since the 'news' has been leaked we need to deal with it. Also someone said in this thread that the controller pay should be dropped if it was 'nothing'. So public perception is that if this is really unimportant then the work an ATC does is easy and hence their pay should be less. If public perception is such then even ATCs and even government agencies need to punish the guy so it does look like a big issue and people don't start thinking that cos in a controlled environment a father taking a kid to work let him do ONE of the many things he gets paid for then they should get paid $4.95.
There's also the possibility of some important transgression occurring if security is relaxed. So an example must be made even if this thing is unimportant.
Aeroflot's accident was a sad one, but due to the nature of the way ATC and pilots work and the way the tower is organised in such a way that a kid with a headset on next to an ATC MAY be supervised I would go as far as to say that if the supervision is not interrupted then the results won't, by any means, be the same. I mean, physically an aircraft cockpit and a control tower are REALLY different.
-
All of this is clearly ridiculous. This guy should be fired, he's giving away a 120k Euro responsibility (that's what an ATC gets paid @ EHAM) to a 10y old.
This makes me sick. What's even worse is, is that all the pilots seem to follow orders by a voice that's clearly from a kid, not from an adult.
-
there are bigger safety issues on the airline industry than this event, I dont know why people is so crazy about this, after all the kid was in supervision from the ATC controller.
Do you know how many new controllers exercise ATC privileges daily? What would you say if instead of that kid, was a newbie ATC??, I think is quite the same thing... Both are under supervision, both are being told what to say, both are closely supervised, so what is the big problem?? does that kid talks on freq every day? c'mon lets focus on real problems in everyday flying.
I think the FAA has bigger problems to work on than focus on this thing.... chillout, ATC screw ups can be received from either a kid or an experienced controller
-
This is hilarious: "We have a slew of people whose sum total of . . . experience is, maybe they were on an airplane once," he said."
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/ny_skies_out_of_control_qfwTTA9m3PH8gTJ4rOsk9J#ixzz0heUczmFT
To the people who have come here just to make trollish comments... you might as well leave.
-
(in the power utility business)
Just my $.02 from an arm-chair wannabe private pilot.
Thanks. But we have enough spare change thrown in by qualified individuals.
The general concensus on most boards is that pilots and controllers just don't give a hoot. And the folks who are getting their panties in a bunch are the folks like yourself....pretty much the same folks the media is targeting.
Lets break down this incident: Was the child CONTROLLING aircraft? No. The dad was. Was the kid parroting what his dad told him to say? Yes. Was this unprofessional? Slightly.....although the jetBlue crew seemed to not think so, nor did any other pilots on freq. Was the dad wearing a headset that he could have stepped in and corrected any stumbling the kid could have done? Yes...in a heartbeat. Did this incident happen at one of the slowest times at JFK? Yes. Would this have ever happened during a high-saturation time? Not in a million years. Was this unsafe? Not in the LEAST!!! Now, lets not generalize here, I wanna know from those of you who think it was unsafe WHY it was unsafe?
In one of the two aircraft I fly, the right seat is a PASSENGER seat. (PC-12). Now, here is a non-qualified individual (lets pretend it's you), with a full set of controls in front of him, and his/her buddies in the back. This can become an extremely distracting situation when the weather is good and workload is low, nevermind when the weather goes down and I'm on the arrival or departure into TEB. But I take steps to mitigate the distraction including a full "sterile cockpit" briefing. And I will even utilize the right seat pax from time to time in assisting me with setting the right side altimeter, handing me charts, etc...
Now, here we are, fat dumb and happy in the high 20's. I've turned his headset mic back on, and we are conversing normally. Workload is extremely low, the frequency is fairly dead. Now, I anticipate a handoff to Atlanta Center, explain to my right seater that, shortly, we are going to get handed off to Atlanta center on 128.25. At this point, he knows our callsign, has heard about 15-20 handoffs, and knows the jist of what to say. I tell him: "As soon as center comes on and says 'Pilatus NXXXXX contact Atlanta Center now 128.25', push THAT little button and say '128.25 Pilatus NXXXXX'...ok?" And he does it perfectly. Lets say he stumbles a bit, or messes it up some how....WHAT NOW? OH JESUS!! WE'RE ALL DEAD!!!Oh, wait a minute, I have the overriding mic button and repeat the handoff in a nanosecond.
The above is pretty much the exact same thing that took place in the JFK tower cab last week.
Great post. As a non-aviator I'm sick of other non-aviators rolling on here and condeming this controllers actions simply because they read it in a paper. Thanks for the perfect response to them.
-
If the air traffic controller functions can be carried out safely by (inexperieced) kids then the pay rate should be reduced for all controllers to $4.95 per hour. Similarly the captain and crew's wages and overall airfares should be reduced by the same amount.
If, on the other hand, there is a serious safety issue involved then the crew and controller should be sacked.
In the meantime I wouldn't fly with the (Air Mexico?) airline ... ever!
I'm sure you'll hurry back to explain exactly why you won't be flying Air Mexico? Ah I know - It's because upon hearing a child's voice from the tower he didn't immediately crash his plane into said tower to teach the kid and his father a lesson. Right? Because I can't think of any other reason.
-
Xenophobia comes to mind.
-
All of this is clearly ridiculous. This guy should be fired, he's giving away a 120k Euro responsibility (that's what an ATC gets paid @ EHAM) to a 10y old.
This makes me sick. What's even worse is, is that all the pilots seem to follow orders by a voice that's clearly from a kid, not from an adult.
What makes me sick is you obviously have no idea how to read.
~D
-
This discussion is over.