Author Topic: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013  (Read 41920 times)

Offline Renaud972

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AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« on: October 24, 2013, 07:22:27 AM »
Hello guys,

Airbus A380 Air France from CDG to LAX got some flaps issue when arriving on final @ LAX. I tried to sum up the conversation between ATC & pilot. Then he switched to 134.35 , apparently this frequency is not feeded on LiveATC. Landed 30 minutes later without additionnal issue.

Best regards from France,

Renaud



757-rules

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Re: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2013, 11:54:42 AM »
 :-o First time I hear a pilot say: "Air France 066 Super Pan Pan"...

Offline RonR

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Re: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2013, 01:04:40 PM »
Hey 757,

Just in case you DIDN'T know, a "Super" is an Airbus A380.  I have a feeling you already knew that but I just wanted to make sure  :-)  I tried reading between the lines but I wasn't sure...  :lol:
Feed Provider:
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 1
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 2
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 3
ZBW/ZNY/ZDC (JFK Area) 4
ZBW (CLIPR32/HTO31)
ZBW (DXR19/SOUTHIE49)
KLGA Gnd
KLGA Dep
KLGA Twr
NY App (Liberty/North)
KLGA App (HAARP)
KLGA Del/ARINC/TCA

757-rules

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Re: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2013, 02:07:11 PM »
Hey 757,

Just in case you DIDN'T know, a "Super" is an Airbus A380.  I have a feeling you already knew that but I just wanted to make sure  :-)  I tried reading between the lines but I wasn't sure...  :lol:

Yep I knew, it's the PAN PAN in one line I was referring to.... (sort of: superpanpan)

Offline Renaud972

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Re: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2013, 04:33:26 PM »
And moreover, that's make a super long callsign !

Offline skyhawk172

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Re: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2013, 08:48:10 PM »
One heck of a long flight from CDG to LAX :mrgreen:

Offline frcabot

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Re: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2013, 03:31:40 AM »
The pan pan after the call sign is totally unnecessary. You declare a pan pan pan once. Afaik you don't add it to your call sign every time you use the radio.

Offline flyflyfly

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Re: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2013, 07:34:44 AM »
You declare a pan pan pan once. Afaik you don't add it to your call sign every time you use the radio.

At least when declaring a mayday, I was indeed taught to add "mayday" to my callsign. It keeps reminding everyone that an exceptional situation is still going on. The reminder may not be necessary for the controller, though it doesn't harm, especially when a situation takes very long (flying holding patterns to burn off fuel), or when you switch frequencies (approach to tower).

But I think the main reason is to raise other pilots' awareness. And new pilots are joining the frequency all the time - they don't know what was declared before, neither which aircraft is affected. But it's better if everyone knows that there is an emergency in progress and who is affected (make extra sure today, that you keep your transmissions really short, don't cause delays etc).

757-rules

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Re: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2013, 09:58:12 AM »
It might be usefull for other traffic, but when in contact with a controller it is a simple word there's something going on when handed over to another controller.

For the rest should the 7700 squawk do it's work....

Offline frcabot

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Re: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2013, 06:44:28 PM »
According to the ICAO phraseology, AIM, and pilot/controller glossary, Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan is a prefix used to denote an urgency message. I have seen no source that states that one should add pan-pan to one's callsign, even for non-urgency messages. Arguably the initial call about flaps not working should have been a pan-pan. The subsequent messages about holding fixes and direct VORs did not need a pan. Here's another example straight out of the relevant ICAO guide, example of Emergency Communications:

RTF Emergency Communications
MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, Metro Control, Big Jet 345, main electric failure,
request immediate landing at Metro, position 35 miles north west of Metro,
heading 120 flight level 80 descending, 150 persons on board, endurance three
hours
Big Jet 345, Roger the MAYDAY, turn left heading 090, radar vectors ILS runway
27
Big Jet 345 request runway 09
Big Jet 345, roger, turn right heading 140 for radar vectoring runway 09,
descend to 3000 feet, QNH 995, report established
Big Jet 345, heading 140, descend to 3000 feet QNH 995 , report established
localiser runway 09

As you can see, Mayday Mayday does not become part of the call sign. It is used for the initial call-up to denote a distress call or distress situation, but each message after that is not itself a distress call. Same with Pan pan.

Likewise, the AIM states that the initial communication should be prefixed with Mayday x 3 or Pan-Pan x 3. It does not state that the mayday or pan-pan becomes part of the callsign.

Not a big deal, but the AF pilot just sounds kind of ridiculous. Every time he spoke I rolled my eyes. But the French have that effect on me in general.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 06:46:26 PM by frcabot »

Offline StuSEL

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Re: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 04:44:39 PM »
For the rest should the 7700 squawk do it's work....
Emergencies in contact with ATC should typically not be squawking 7700. That's a common misconception.
CFII

757-rules

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Re: AFR066 with flaps issue 10/22/2013
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 05:22:40 PM »
For the rest should the 7700 squawk do it's work....
Emergencies in contact with ATC should typically not be squawking 7700. That's a common misconception.

You're right, I just ran into this:

"ICAO Phraseology Reference Guide 19
ALL CLEAR AGC safety initiative EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS

RTF Emergency Communications

As soon as there is any doubt as to the safe conduct of a flight, immediately
request assistance from ATC. Flight crews should declare the situation early; it
can always be cancelled.
!
A distress call (situation where the aircraft requires immediate assistance) is
prefixed: MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY
.!
An urgency message (situation not requiring immediate assistance) is
prefixed: PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN.
!
Make the initial call on the frequency in use, but if that is not
possible squawk 7700 and call on 121.5.
!
The distress/urgency message shall contain (at least) the name of the
station addressed, the callsign, nature of the emergency, fuel endurance
and persons on board; and any supporting information such as position,
level, (descending), speed and heading, and pilot’s intentions."

Source - http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/115.pdf

« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 05:27:01 PM by 757-rules »