Author Topic: 2 AA Airplanes get a little close at JFK.  (Read 13231 times)

Offline mldoc

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2 AA Airplanes get a little close at JFK.
« on: June 21, 2013, 09:58:30 AM »
Here's an interesting recording from JFK last night that was pointed out to me by a friend.  One AA flight gets to a mile and a half final with another AA flight is starting its takeoff roll.



erau2006

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Re: 2 AA Airplanes get a little close at JFK.
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2013, 10:32:05 AM »
And how is this unsafe? The controller was providing standard separation (which the pilot had the nerve to question) and since it wouldn't work- exited the aircraft for one to land.

Offline chrisatcc

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Re: 2 AA Airplanes get a little close at JFK.
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2013, 11:12:23 AM »
AAL64 was cleared for takeoff behind an Austria 777 (AUA88), apparently the AA pilot didnt feel like he was given enough separation between the two for takeoff. listening live it sounded just fine to me.

the reason AAL64 was told to exit because AAL1938 was on short final to the same runway.

but has me wondering what is the legal time between 2 heavy departures?

Offline Jason

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Re: 2 AA Airplanes get a little close at JFK.
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2013, 11:37:55 AM »
Here's an interesting recording from JFK last night that was pointed out to me by a friend.  One AA flight gets to a mile and a half final with another AA flight is starting its takeoff roll.

You should see them shoot the gap like this in SAN. Pretty common. Last week they launched a SWA 737 while I was on a 1 mi final.

Offline ChrisDTC

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Re: 2 AA Airplanes get a little close at JFK.
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2013, 12:27:57 PM »
AAL64 was cleared for takeoff behind an Austria 777 (AUA88), apparently the AA pilot didnt feel like he was given enough separation between the two for takeoff. listening live it sounded just fine to me.

the reason AAL64 was told to exit because AAL1938 was on short final to the same runway.

but has me wondering what is the legal time between 2 heavy departures?
Here's the book

http://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/atc.pdf

Page 3-9-5 and 3-9-6

But the rules in the book can be adjusted for local circumstances, so it's possible these rules are not the ones that controller was working with.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 12:29:42 PM by ChrisDTC »

Offline helinyc

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Re: 2 AA Airplanes get a little close at JFK.
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 10:16:56 PM »
The FAA does not issue local wavers for wake turbulence separation rules.  AAL pilots are jackasses.

Offline CLIPPER1

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Re: 2 AA Airplanes get a little close at JFK.
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2013, 12:20:54 PM »
AAL64 was cleared for takeoff behind an Austria 777 (AUA88), apparently the AA pilot didnt feel like he was given enough separation between the two for takeoff. listening live it sounded just fine to me.

the reason AAL64 was told to exit because AAL1938 was on short final to the same runway.

but has me wondering what is the legal time between 2 heavy departures?
Here's the book

http://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/atc.pdf

Page 3-9-5 and 3-9-6

But the rules in the book can be adjusted for local circumstances, so it's possible these rules are not the ones that controller was working with.

JFK has radar so they use the separation in Par. 5-5-4. The AAL64 pilot obviously hasn't read the "note" in that paragraph.

erau2006

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Re: 2 AA Airplanes get a little close at JFK.
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2013, 01:51:36 PM »
Standard separation behind a Heavy is 5 miles (for 757's and larges) or 4 (heavy to heavy). If you want time: it's 2 minutes. But JFK is a radar certified so they can deal with mileage.

Offline sykocus

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Re: 2 AA Airplanes get a little close at JFK.
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2013, 11:17:05 PM »
There's a few different rules in play here.

Assuming none of the aircraft are smalls. Tower's separation after a heavy departure would be 2 minutes after the 1st starts it takeoff roll, unless the 2nd departure is at an intersection then it would be 3 minutes from when the 1st takes off. 7110.65 ch 3 sec 9

Tower's separation between a departing heavy and an arrival is the departing aircraft "has departed and crossed the runway end or turned to avert any conflict" or it is airborne and 6000ft down the runway if "distances by reference to suitable landmarks" can be determined. A wake turbulence advisory is needed but no additional separation. ch 3 sec 10

Then there's radar separation.

Departure to arrival separation on the same runway for other then intersection departures would be 2 miles increasing to 3 within 1 minute of takeoff. Ch 5 sec 8

Separation on final, (between arrivals), with a heavy behind a heavy is 4 miles. A large behind a heavy would be 5. ch 5 sec 9

Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.

Offline cessna157

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Re: 2 AA Airplanes get a little close at JFK.
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2013, 01:06:22 PM »
The FAA does not issue local wavers for wake turbulence separation rules.  AAL pilots are jackasses.

Actually they do.  MEM is currently operating at recategorized wake turbulence standards.
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