Author Topic: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"  (Read 31491 times)

Offline blahblah121212

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"Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« on: December 22, 2009, 05:40:49 PM »
I've been a long-time lurker and this is my first clip posted :)

There was lots of tension audible on the PHX feed this afternoon as a result of storms.

Alaska 630 argues with the controllers and threatens to enter restricted airspace. The controller responds by telling him he might get shot down!

I edited out most of the other transmissions but left a few in at the start for ambiance. Action starts at 00:34, and the shot down line is at 1:49.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASA630/history/20091222/1820Z/KSEA/KPHX
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 11:11:02 PM by blahblah121212 »



Offline Junior P

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 05:58:44 PM »
lol nice exchange between pilot and controllers..... good post!
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Offline joeyb747

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2009, 06:50:28 PM »
GREAT CLIP! Thanks for posting that!
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Offline aevins

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2009, 10:50:10 PM »
Wow...I hope they both filed an ASRS reports. Quite literally between a rock and a hard place. Very interesting clip.

Offline athaker

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2009, 01:30:30 AM »
Great find and great clip!

Offline Dan CZQM

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2009, 08:54:35 AM »
Very nice to hear something different.  Great Capture.

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Offline jeffcyn

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2009, 09:57:44 AM »
Really great clip!!

Any idea where they were located? 

Offline blahblah121212

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2009, 11:04:29 AM »
I think they were heading east into the Outlaw MOA that is southeast of Phoenix. About at the southwestern point of the MOA (where it says Restricted R-2310A).

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.22262592002847,-110.93187200143242&chart=25&zoom=4

Offline rekno13

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2009, 03:00:21 PM »

Offline Squawk 7700

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2009, 08:50:06 PM »
Great clip. I felt the tension too.
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Offline Yegger

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2009, 08:58:27 PM »

Offline Galaxy001

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2009, 12:55:56 AM »
Very interesting, thanks for editing it for us.

Offline applerider

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2009, 02:48:42 AM »
thanks for the audio clip! i saved the map as an image.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 02:54:34 AM by applerider »

Offline Fryy

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2009, 04:43:35 AM »
they should of just declared a fuel emergency, at least that way they could of just flown through the MOA

Offline sykocus

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2009, 09:06:08 PM »
they should of just declared a fuel emergency, at least that way they could of just flown through the MOA

not really.
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Offline zacek

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2009, 01:29:30 AM »
It's not the MOA that's the problem.  It's the restricted area.  The difference is that restricted areas may contain unseen hazards to aircraft, such as artillery fire.  The controllers may not vector an aircraft into a restricted area.  Under 91.3, one be protected from administrative action due to violation of an FAR in an emergency, but 91.3 doesn't protect against pieces of metal crashing though the aircraft.  (Also, you really have to have an emergency -- not just declare one).  Anyone can fly through a "hot" MOA, you just run the risk of having to see and avoid something moving really really fast.  :)

Offline sykocus

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2009, 02:03:09 AM »
\Anyone can fly through a "hot" MOA, you just run the risk of having to see and avoid something moving really really fast.  :)

not quite correct. only vfr aircraft can fly though an active moa. controllers have a separation requirement for IFR aircraft from an active moa. just because an aircraft declares an emergency doesn't eliminate a controller's separation requirement, be it from airspace or other aircraft. sometimes it's possible to directly or indirectly contact the aircraft or agency using the SUA (special use airspace) and coordinate for an emergency aircraft or special case, but other times that's just not possible. in the end the pilot is ultimate responsible for the operation of the aircraft. if he wants to take his chances with a solid object (bullets or other aircraft) over wx, he better be prepared to do it without ATC's blessing.
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Offline rekno13

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2009, 09:20:06 AM »
So was the reason he could not turn left, away from the storm, that another plane was in that direction? I think I missed that bit.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2009, 10:30:35 AM »
So was the reason he could not turn left, away from the storm, that another plane was in that direction? I think I missed that bit.


At the 1:47 mark the controller says "That restricted area has bullets flying in the air, you can not go in that area..."

No mention of any other aircraft, probably a live ammunition range. So he had a thunderstorm on his right and a live ammunition range on his left...rock and a hard place...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 08:50:16 PM by joeyb747 »
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Offline kaktak1

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2009, 01:45:17 PM »
That specific area is a firing range for the national guard so there may have been bullets flying in the air.  The Outlaw MOA I think goes up to 8,000 or 3000 AGL feet I want to say.  Just some more info on the area.
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Offline rekno13

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2009, 02:59:50 PM »
Well, looking at the map provided by applerider, see where he turns right just at the edge of the MOA airspace? At around Florance Junction. It looks like if he turned left or right he'd miss the restricted airspace. Or am I reading that map wrong and if he turned left he'd go into the restricted airspace also?

Offline joeyb747

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2009, 08:49:54 PM »
Well the way I read the chart, is the area outlined in purple is the OUTLAW MOA. It's not on the chart attached in this thread, but I have a Phoenix Sectional, and it says "OUTLAW MOA   EXTENSIVE MILITARY TRAINING ACTIVITY   CONTACT ALBUQUERQUE CENTER ON 125.4 FOR ACTIVITY STATUS".

The area that is restricted is the area in outlined in blue at the southwest corner of the OUTLAW MOA.
R-2310A, B, and C. I'm thinking it's this area that approach was trying to keep Alaska 630 out of.  

But yes, rekno13, if he had turned left insted of right (North insted of South), he would have missed the restricted area. He could have turned left, headed north of Appache Junction, turned left again to 260 degrees and rolled out on runway heading and had a nice, long, straight-in approach. He was asking for the left turn after being turned to 160.  If he turned left and headed north, then he would have wound up in the restricted area. He kept asking for left turns when he could only go right, but he had weather to his right.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 08:51:42 PM by joeyb747 »
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Offline rekno13

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2009, 09:59:32 PM »
I see. I think I understand what you mean by the restricted zone. They were trying to keep him well clear of the area, because if he turned left he might get too close as well. Right was the safest play in the controller's view.

Offline blahblah121212

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2010, 04:24:11 PM »
Sorry to revive this thread, but the local paper published an interesting story today on the restricted airspace in question. Apparently some GA pilots have been encroaching recently.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/pinal/articles/2010/06/15/20100615pilots-fly-into-restricted-air-space.html

Offline joeyb747

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Re: "Alaska 630: You might get shot down"
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2010, 06:58:53 PM »
Good article! Thanks for posting that!
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